DVD Copy Protection at DVinfo.net

Mark Whitlock · May 9th, 2004, 01:10 PM

Recently I made a corporate training video for a client and all went perfectly well until they mentioned that they require 250 copies. I quoted my rates but a week later I noticed that they had purchaced a DVD writer for their office with the intention of copying my work.

I use Ulead DVD Workshop 2 with a built in Macrovision 1,2 and 3 encoder. Obviously this is fine for scambling analogue outputs from DVD players to video decks or standalone DVD recorders but what of disk to disk copying using their software that came with their new DVD recorder on the PC. Is it possible to block this type of copying? I have heard of somthing that makes the size of the files larger than can actually fit on a disk (4,7Gb). Do any other DVD authoring packages offer some encryption that might be of use to me.

Thanks

Peter Moore · May 9th, 2004, 02:35 PM

Nothing will prevent direct file copying of your DVD if you put it on DVD-R. Your remotest hope is to have the discs replicated and include CSS copy protection, but this is essentially worthless since it's been broken for many years. Unfortunately there's nothing else you can do, short of making them agree even more explicitly than the copyright law itself would demand that they don't make copies and if they do sue them.

Jake Russell · May 10th, 2004, 03:07 AM

Yeah you'll need to replicate and add CSS & Macrovision as mentioned. You'll need to submit the project on DLT also and you're looking at 500+ units min.

Yes making a dvd-9 will also help as if they want to copy the disc they will have to rip it, re-encode it and re-author it so they can copy it! That's too much hassle for some people and the loss of quality is not acceptable sometimes,

-Jake

Gints Klimanis · May 10th, 2004, 07:08 PM

For future reference, I suppose that one could simply make a DVD-R master and scratch the outer tracks. I suspect that the copying program would abort when it encountered this error. CRC errors on old CD-Rs have stopped me.

Rob Lohman · May 11th, 2004, 10:31 AM

Basically you can't protect it. But if you know they are going to
copy it perhaps there are legal steps you can take.

John Britt · May 11th, 2004, 11:19 AM

My question would be: How important is the duplication aspect of your business? Is it a main part of the package you sell, or is it just a little bit of gravy on top of your video production services?

It sounds like since you produced the entire training video for them, then production is the main part of your business -- and I assume you charge accordingly. If so, I don't know that I would worry too much about the duplication aspect. Besides, this sounds like something that could fall under work-for-hire, in which case they might have the rights to everything you produced anyway. Think about what you would do (and charge) if you were only a production service, didn't own a DVD duplicator, and they were going to have to go elsewhere to duplicate the discs anyway.

I don't mean to turn this into a Taking Care of Business thread, but the business side of it seemed to crop up. I'd say let them try and make 250 copies with the (I bet) cheap, bottom of the line DVD burner they bought -- when they come back to you begging for help, you can tell 'em that your prices just went up!

Mark Whitlock · May 11th, 2004, 12:19 PM

Guys thanks for your replies. It will obviously make business sense to load the production costs in this case as John has suggested.

I know that whatever encryption method is used, it will be bypassed in some way or another but I suppose my main aim would probably be to stop regular clients (not supadupa hackers) from copying my work.

Once again, thanks for the replies... I will certainly have a different approach fto future work!

Peter Moore · May 11th, 2004, 12:57 PM

As Jake mentioned DVD-9 is a great way to deter copying. But it winds up costing about $1500 for a minimum order of 1000. So it's only worthwhile if you're planning on selling more than 200 copies or so, which you are, so it might be worth it.

Rob Lohman · May 11th, 2004, 02:08 PM

The problem is not that the copying tools are only for people in
the know these days. Someone I know who doesn't know
anything at all about computers proudly proclaimed he copied
a few DVD's the other week. The tool came with some simple
computer magazine with included instructions. It was just an
easy wizard based program with a few steps. Took no longer
than 5 minutes to setup and away it went.

So you must decide whether getting your discs stamped,
duplicated and CSS (encrypted) encoded is worth the money.
A lot of these programs allow very easy down-encoding for
movies larger than 4.5 GB as well.

I personally don't think any of these will help for your time and
money. I'm not sure what would be the best way to proceed...

Jake Russell · May 12th, 2004, 02:58 AM

I think it's worth it. Normally it will stop the normal people. Those type of apps and guides aren't going to be in that mag every month. If you do a dvd-9 then the encoding to dvd-5 means lower quality.

I know there are loads of tools and guides and I know that most folks on the boards can find them but I just think the numbers of people that would actually do it are far less than buyers.

If you're going to replication then it's no extra cost for CSS, all you have to do is check it in the authoring app and write to DLT(or dvd-r(A). Macrovison, you have to pay per unit but it isn't much and with the cost of dvd's coming further and futher down it's not too hard to factor into the cost.

Yeah if you are doing a dvd-r then the choice isn't there. Also if you aren't doing the units then the choice isn't there but if you are I'd say it's worth it. IMHO,

Jake

Rob Lohman · May 12th, 2004, 05:10 AM

If you are doing larger batches with mastering & duplications
then sure, it's a small price to pay to add it. BUT, I was under
the impression it was just for a handfull of copies and thus it
changes to a very big investment suddenly.

Are you sure CSS doesn't add licensing costs? I was under the
impression that you did have to pay licensing fees to be able
to use it (just as Macrovision as you pointed out).

Jake Russell · May 12th, 2004, 05:16 AM

The rep house pay for both aswell. But this end we only have to pay for Macrovision which is unit by unit and the cost goes down the more you'll ship, as always!

Jake

Peter Moore · May 12th, 2004, 05:51 AM

Some replicators do charge extra for CSS. It depends on the place.

If you use DVD-9 though why bother with CSS? Anyone can easily crack CSS with a simple freeware app. It's more complicated to re-encode the video to fit on DVD-R.

Jake Russell · May 12th, 2004, 05:59 AM

Yep there are some that do but that is because they probably don't have a licence. They outsource the job and need to charge extra! All the bigger companines will have a licence.

CSS on dvd-9 cause you wont be able to drag the build to HD and use it to watch or import Title Sets etc unless you strip it of course.

Jake

Peter Jefferson · May 12th, 2004, 06:59 AM

umm.. regarldess of the copy protection, there are programs like DVDShrink beta3 which rip the dvd in less than an hour and let u burn with nero.

Ive also considered puttin copyprotection on my work, but to this day, the effort is not worth it..
i jstu charge a nominal fee which is comparable to retail costs.

I also get them to sign a contract strictly stating that no duplication will occur without written consent on my business letterhead.

May 9th, 2004, 01:10 PM	#1
Mark Whitlock New Boot Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Richards Bay, South Africa Posts: 9	DVD Copy Protection Recently I made a corporate training video for a client and all went perfectly well until they mentioned that they require 250 copies. I quoted my rates but a week later I noticed that they had purchaced a DVD writer for their office with the intention of copying my work. I use Ulead DVD Workshop 2 with a built in Macrovision 1,2 and 3 encoder. Obviously this is fine for scambling analogue outputs from DVD players to video decks or standalone DVD recorders but what of disk to disk copying using their software that came with their new DVD recorder on the PC. Is it possible to block this type of copying? I have heard of somthing that makes the size of the files larger than can actually fit on a disk (4,7Gb). Do any other DVD authoring packages offer some encryption that might be of use to me. Thanks __________________ Mark

May 11th, 2004, 10:31 AM	#5
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Basically you can't protect it. But if you know they are going to copy it perhaps there are legal steps you can take. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 11th, 2004, 11:19 AM	#6
John Britt Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 621	Assuming that you are primarily a video production service... My question would be: How important is the duplication aspect of your business? Is it a main part of the package you sell, or is it just a little bit of gravy on top of your video production services? It sounds like since you produced the entire training video for them, then production is the main part of your business -- and I assume you charge accordingly. If so, I don't know that I would worry too much about the duplication aspect. Besides, this sounds like something that could fall under work-for-hire, in which case they might have the rights to everything you produced anyway. Think about what you would do (and charge) if you were only a production service, didn't own a DVD duplicator, and they were going to have to go elsewhere to duplicate the discs anyway. I don't mean to turn this into a Taking Care of Business thread, but the business side of it seemed to crop up. I'd say let them try and make 250 copies with the (I bet) cheap, bottom of the line DVD burner they bought -- when they come back to you begging for help, you can tell 'em that your prices just went up!

May 11th, 2004, 12:19 PM	#7
Mark Whitlock New Boot Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Richards Bay, South Africa Posts: 9	Guys thanks for your replies. It will obviously make business sense to load the production costs in this case as John has suggested. I know that whatever encryption method is used, it will be bypassed in some way or another but I suppose my main aim would probably be to stop regular clients (not supadupa hackers) from copying my work. Once again, thanks for the replies... I will certainly have a different approach fto future work! __________________ Mark

May 11th, 2004, 02:08 PM	#9
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	The problem is not that the copying tools are only for people in the know these days. Someone I know who doesn't know anything at all about computers proudly proclaimed he copied a few DVD's the other week. The tool came with some simple computer magazine with included instructions. It was just an easy wizard based program with a few steps. Took no longer than 5 minutes to setup and away it went. So you must decide whether getting your discs stamped, duplicated and CSS (encrypted) encoded is worth the money. A lot of these programs allow very easy down-encoding for movies larger than 4.5 GB as well. I personally don't think any of these will help for your time and money. I'm not sure what would be the best way to proceed... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 9th, 2004, 02:35 PM	#2
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Nothing will prevent direct file copying of your DVD if you put it on DVD-R. Your remotest hope is to have the discs replicated and include CSS copy protection, but this is essentially worthless since it's been broken for many years. Unfortunately there's nothing else you can do, short of making them agree even more explicitly than the copyright law itself would demand that they don't make copies and if they do sue them.

May 10th, 2004, 03:07 AM	#3
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	Yeah you'll need to replicate and add CSS & Macrovision as mentioned. You'll need to submit the project on DLT also and you're looking at 500+ units min. Yes making a dvd-9 will also help as if they want to copy the disc they will have to rip it, re-encode it and re-author it so they can copy it! That's too much hassle for some people and the loss of quality is not acceptable sometimes, -Jake

May 10th, 2004, 07:08 PM	#4
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	For future reference, I suppose that one could simply make a DVD-R master and scratch the outer tracks. I suspect that the copying program would abort when it encountered this error. CRC errors on old CD-Rs have stopped me.

May 11th, 2004, 12:57 PM	#8
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	As Jake mentioned DVD-9 is a great way to deter copying. But it winds up costing about $1500 for a minimum order of 1000. So it's only worthwhile if you're planning on selling more than 200 copies or so, which you are, so it might be worth it.

May 12th, 2004, 02:58 AM	#10
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	I think it's worth it. Normally it will stop the normal people. Those type of apps and guides aren't going to be in that mag every month. If you do a dvd-9 then the encoding to dvd-5 means lower quality. I know there are loads of tools and guides and I know that most folks on the boards can find them but I just think the numbers of people that would actually do it are far less than buyers. If you're going to replication then it's no extra cost for CSS, all you have to do is check it in the authoring app and write to DLT(or dvd-r(A). Macrovison, you have to pay per unit but it isn't much and with the cost of dvd's coming further and futher down it's not too hard to factor into the cost. Yeah if you are doing a dvd-r then the choice isn't there. Also if you aren't doing the units then the choice isn't there but if you are I'd say it's worth it. IMHO, Jake

May 12th, 2004, 05:10 AM	#11
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	If you are doing larger batches with mastering & duplications then sure, it's a small price to pay to add it. BUT, I was under the impression it was just for a handfull of copies and thus it changes to a very big investment suddenly. Are you sure CSS doesn't add licensing costs? I was under the impression that you did have to pay licensing fees to be able to use it (just as Macrovision as you pointed out). __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 12th, 2004, 05:16 AM	#12
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	The rep house pay for both aswell. But this end we only have to pay for Macrovision which is unit by unit and the cost goes down the more you'll ship, as always! Jake

May 12th, 2004, 05:51 AM	#13
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Some replicators do charge extra for CSS. It depends on the place. If you use DVD-9 though why bother with CSS? Anyone can easily crack CSS with a simple freeware app. It's more complicated to re-encode the video to fit on DVD-R.

May 12th, 2004, 05:59 AM	#14
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	Yep there are some that do but that is because they probably don't have a licence. They outsource the job and need to charge extra! All the bigger companines will have a licence. CSS on dvd-9 cause you wont be able to drag the build to HD and use it to watch or import Title Sets etc unless you strip it of course. Jake

May 12th, 2004, 06:59 AM	#15
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	umm.. regarldess of the copy protection, there are programs like DVDShrink beta3 which rip the dvd in less than an hour and let u burn with nero. Ive also considered puttin copyprotection on my work, but to this day, the effort is not worth it.. i jstu charge a nominal fee which is comparable to retail costs. I also get them to sign a contract strictly stating that no duplication will occur without written consent on my business letterhead.