I heard this about DVD's....

Dan Euritt · May 8th, 2004, 06:22 PM

jake, my point was that people who sell content on dvd-r's don't use region coding.

fwiw, the dvd-lab guys seem to be pretty happy with this $29 ac-3 encoder(?):

http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/index.html

here is their thread: http://www.mmbforums.com/modules.php...ewtopic&t=4198

Jake Russell · May 9th, 2004, 04:28 AM

I can't even remember my point :-) I think it wasn't so much to do with region coding but more to do with your (someones) "..cutting corners, or not fully adhering to the dvd spec" comment. I was just using region coding as an eg that sometimes folks don't know what their dvd app is doing.

So the regions thing was just an example as region coding is not something you can use on dvd-r but there are still rules spec wise. And many dvd apps don't flag your region info as you'd expect if you write to the HD or .img. When people think their dvd is region ALL it may actually be 1-6 ok and 7 & 8 disabled. This can cause problems compatibility wise if you then use a 3rd party app to write to ±r.

Ok enough of all that ;-) thanks for the info on AC-3 and the encoder. Cheers guys,

Jake

Dan Euritt · May 9th, 2004, 05:10 PM

well, ya got me thinking about it again :-) i went back and checked the region coding, it was good to go... thanks for the tip!

Jake Russell · May 10th, 2004, 02:54 AM

Ok what did you use to check the region info? IFOEdit?

It wouldn't cause skips and playback issues it would just not let you play the disc. Disc Error etc. so it wouldn't of fixed your problem in this particular case...

-Jake

Dan Euritt · May 10th, 2004, 09:13 PM

since i ship to some overseas companies, i checked the region coding just to make sure that it was correct... i re-authored the dvd with reeldvd, then sent a copy out for testing where it had failed before... keeping my fingers crossed.

Jake Russell · May 11th, 2004, 02:37 AM

Yeah but you checked it with what?

You see with many apps even if you think it's region all it might not be. It will have regions 1-6 ok and 7 & 8 disabled. You have no reason to think this but the apps just do things users are unaware of.

Hope the disc if fine this time. Did you send it on the same brand media?

-Jake

Dan Euritt · May 11th, 2004, 09:50 PM

there is no reason for a dvd-r disc to have any regional coding on it at all... and region coding is certainly not required by the dvd spec... i believe that most dvd authoring apps that cater to the dvd-r crowd don't default to rce checking... in fact, i don't even know how you'd make, say, reeldvd create an rce-enabled disc that disabled specific regions... do you??

yes i use ifoedit, but i also know that ifoedit is still not bug-free... witness it's occasional failure to correctly list mpeg2 frame sizes, for instance.

i used the same discs and content files, hopefully i'll know more by the end of the week!

Jake Russell · May 12th, 2004, 03:27 AM

:-)

Ok RCE is different from Region Coding.

There are 8 regions.

1. Canada, US, etc
2. Japan, Western Europe, Middle East etc
3. Southeast Asia
4. Australia, New Zealand etc
5. Africa, Russia etc
6. China and Tibet
7. Reserved
8. Airlines etc

If your app doesn't have any region coding options then it just means it makes a Region ALL disc, or Region 0 or whatever else those discs are called. As you can see from the list there is no Region '0'. Region '0' means that the Region Code Mask is flagged as 0 in the VMG(Video Manager). It has to be flagged as something even if it's zero.

Now with dvd-r, yes the spec does cover it :-), it has to be RCM 0 as the lead-in control information is set that way and that information has to be the same in the VMG.

Now the reason this is brought up is because some software, even if it doesn't support 'SETTING' region coding must flag this information in the VMG. Some apps don't flag the RCM in the VMG as 0 but 192(which means 7 & 8 are disabled). Now if the app does this then the information is not the same in the lead-in as in the VMG and this can cause problems compatibility wise and is against the spec.

For example some dvdsp 2 users were building their projects to HD and using Toast as they wanted to be able to control burn speed but when dvdsp 2 writes to HD the RCM is 192(no matter what the region setting is in the project) and when it writes to dvd-r or DLT it flaggs the RCM as 0, if you check all the region check boxes.

Ok that's it I hope! :-)

-Jake

Dan Euritt · May 13th, 2004, 05:33 PM

jake, think of rce(region code enhancement) as an active version of region coding... it's designed to prevent the dvd from playing on code-free dvd players that are set for all regions.

that is a situation you brits definitely need to be aware of, when it comes to getting region 1 hollywood movies to work on your players... but all region coding methods are irrelevant to a discussion about dvd-r's.

<<<--Now with dvd-r, yes the spec does cover it :-)
-Jake -->>>

no, the dvd-r physical media spec does not cover region coding, your toast burner should know better, lol:

http://www.mmbforums.com/modules.php...=5160&start=15

and no dvd-r authoring application should be creating an all-region disc, either... got it? :-)

Jake Russell · May 14th, 2004, 03:15 AM

I know what RCE is!

I've hundereds of Region 1 discs. With and without RCE.

It's got nothing to do with Toast. Toast is doing as it should, leaving the VMG alone.

If a disc has got a VMG! Then it covers region coding my man!!!!! No two ways about it. Toast is doing as it should but many authoring apps out there aren't.

I know Trai. Been a member for a long time. On the Beta Test Edit team. Flew me to NAB. I write him articles. I was the reason he broke out the spec book in the first place regarding this issue.

>>> Quote: and no dvd-r authoring application should be creating an all-region disc, either... got it? :-)<<<

What are you talking about! I don't think I'll get through to you!

The guy who said that people and most players always look at VMG was spot on. All the players I tested did just that and therfore the region coding(Region 1 only) held up on dvd-r BUT the big question is how compatible would it be in Region 1 land! Because the lead-in and VMG didn't match.

-Jake

Dan Euritt · May 14th, 2004, 08:04 PM

i think that what we have here is a failure to communicate, lol!

the ONLY thing people who use recordable dvd's need to know is that the "Region Code Mask is flagged as 0 in the VMG(Video Manager)."

PERIOD... you are now fully dvd-spec legal, per the link i posted... STOP RIGHT THERE :-)

my beef with you, jake, was when you made the following bogus statement:

>>>There is region coding on every disc. You just have to flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not.<<<

with recordable dvd's, do NOT ever "flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not." ...of course you would have changed the region code mask along with that, so you would have created a dvd that is not fully legal... as was clearly explained in the link i posted.

therefore, since you cannot legally change the region code mask when using recordable dvd's, REGION CODES DON'T APPLY TO RECORDABLE DVD'S.

that is also clearly explained in the dvd demystified faq: http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.10

on a lighter note... there are signs my re-authored dvd is now working on one of the players it gagged on before... i used reeldvd instead of the first pro version of dvd-lab, same media and mpeg2/ac-3, except that i had to re-size the 704x480 clip to 720x480, because reeldvd can't handle different sized media.

704x480 frame size is of course dvd-legal, so i think that it's an issue with the dvd-lab muxer(??)... because the dvd-lab authored version was skipping some frames even on the 720x480 segments.

Jake Russell · May 15th, 2004, 05:17 AM

Yep I agree with you. BUT there are MANY MANY MANY MANY dvd apps that don't have the RCM set to '0' in the VMG and that is why I brought the point up. Even if authors think they are doing things right they might not be unless they have TFDVDEdit or IFOEdit to check and change things. MANY apps set the RCM to '192' and not '0' and others flag it differently depending where you build to.

My point with this quote:

>>>There is region coding on every disc. You just have to flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not.<<<

is that even if you don't want region coding on the disc or your app doesn't have the ability to change the region settings a value will be in the RCM. Even if it's '0'. So it is region coded just set to ALL or RCM '0'. That field is never blank it's always got a number even if it's zero.

BUT as you and I agree :-), LEGALLY on dvd-r it has to be '0' which is sometimes where compatibility issues come in cause apps are doing inconsistent things behind the scenes.

-Jake

May 8th, 2004, 06:22 PM	#31
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	jake, my point was that people who sell content on dvd-r's don't use region coding. fwiw, the dvd-lab guys seem to be pretty happy with this $29 ac-3 encoder(?): http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/index.html here is their thread: http://www.mmbforums.com/modules.php...ewtopic&t=4198

May 9th, 2004, 04:28 AM	#32
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	I can't even remember my point :-) I think it wasn't so much to do with region coding but more to do with your (someones) "..cutting corners, or not fully adhering to the dvd spec" comment. I was just using region coding as an eg that sometimes folks don't know what their dvd app is doing. So the regions thing was just an example as region coding is not something you can use on dvd-r but there are still rules spec wise. And many dvd apps don't flag your region info as you'd expect if you write to the HD or .img. When people think their dvd is region ALL it may actually be 1-6 ok and 7 & 8 disabled. This can cause problems compatibility wise if you then use a 3rd party app to write to ±r. Ok enough of all that ;-) thanks for the info on AC-3 and the encoder. Cheers guys, Jake

May 9th, 2004, 05:10 PM	#33
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	well, ya got me thinking about it again :-) i went back and checked the region coding, it was good to go... thanks for the tip!

May 10th, 2004, 02:54 AM	#34
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	Ok what did you use to check the region info? IFOEdit? It wouldn't cause skips and playback issues it would just not let you play the disc. Disc Error etc. so it wouldn't of fixed your problem in this particular case... -Jake

May 10th, 2004, 09:13 PM	#35
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	since i ship to some overseas companies, i checked the region coding just to make sure that it was correct... i re-authored the dvd with reeldvd, then sent a copy out for testing where it had failed before... keeping my fingers crossed.

May 11th, 2004, 02:37 AM	#36
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	Yeah but you checked it with what? You see with many apps even if you think it's region all it might not be. It will have regions 1-6 ok and 7 & 8 disabled. You have no reason to think this but the apps just do things users are unaware of. Hope the disc if fine this time. Did you send it on the same brand media? -Jake

May 11th, 2004, 09:50 PM	#37
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	there is no reason for a dvd-r disc to have any regional coding on it at all... and region coding is certainly not required by the dvd spec... i believe that most dvd authoring apps that cater to the dvd-r crowd don't default to rce checking... in fact, i don't even know how you'd make, say, reeldvd create an rce-enabled disc that disabled specific regions... do you?? yes i use ifoedit, but i also know that ifoedit is still not bug-free... witness it's occasional failure to correctly list mpeg2 frame sizes, for instance. i used the same discs and content files, hopefully i'll know more by the end of the week!

May 12th, 2004, 03:27 AM	#38
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	:-) Ok RCE is different from Region Coding. There are 8 regions. 1. Canada, US, etc 2. Japan, Western Europe, Middle East etc 3. Southeast Asia 4. Australia, New Zealand etc 5. Africa, Russia etc 6. China and Tibet 7. Reserved 8. Airlines etc If your app doesn't have any region coding options then it just means it makes a Region ALL disc, or Region 0 or whatever else those discs are called. As you can see from the list there is no Region '0'. Region '0' means that the Region Code Mask is flagged as 0 in the VMG(Video Manager). It has to be flagged as something even if it's zero. Now with dvd-r, yes the spec does cover it :-), it has to be RCM 0 as the lead-in control information is set that way and that information has to be the same in the VMG. Now the reason this is brought up is because some software, even if it doesn't support 'SETTING' region coding must flag this information in the VMG. Some apps don't flag the RCM in the VMG as 0 but 192(which means 7 & 8 are disabled). Now if the app does this then the information is not the same in the lead-in as in the VMG and this can cause problems compatibility wise and is against the spec. For example some dvdsp 2 users were building their projects to HD and using Toast as they wanted to be able to control burn speed but when dvdsp 2 writes to HD the RCM is 192(no matter what the region setting is in the project) and when it writes to dvd-r or DLT it flaggs the RCM as 0, if you check all the region check boxes. Ok that's it I hope! :-) -Jake

May 13th, 2004, 05:33 PM	#39
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	jake, think of rce(region code enhancement) as an active version of region coding... it's designed to prevent the dvd from playing on code-free dvd players that are set for all regions. that is a situation you brits definitely need to be aware of, when it comes to getting region 1 hollywood movies to work on your players... but all region coding methods are irrelevant to a discussion about dvd-r's. <<<--Now with dvd-r, yes the spec does cover it :-) -Jake -->>> no, the dvd-r physical media spec does not cover region coding, your toast burner should know better, lol: http://www.mmbforums.com/modules.php...=5160&start=15 and no dvd-r authoring application should be creating an all-region disc, either... got it? :-)

May 14th, 2004, 03:15 AM	#40
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	I know what RCE is! I've hundereds of Region 1 discs. With and without RCE. It's got nothing to do with Toast. Toast is doing as it should, leaving the VMG alone. If a disc has got a VMG! Then it covers region coding my man!!!!! No two ways about it. Toast is doing as it should but many authoring apps out there aren't. I know Trai. Been a member for a long time. On the Beta Test Edit team. Flew me to NAB. I write him articles. I was the reason he broke out the spec book in the first place regarding this issue. >>> Quote: and no dvd-r authoring application should be creating an all-region disc, either... got it? :-)<<< What are you talking about! I don't think I'll get through to you! The guy who said that people and most players always look at VMG was spot on. All the players I tested did just that and therfore the region coding(Region 1 only) held up on dvd-r BUT the big question is how compatible would it be in Region 1 land! Because the lead-in and VMG didn't match. -Jake

May 14th, 2004, 08:04 PM	#41
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	i think that what we have here is a failure to communicate, lol! the ONLY thing people who use recordable dvd's need to know is that the "Region Code Mask is flagged as 0 in the VMG(Video Manager)." PERIOD... you are now fully dvd-spec legal, per the link i posted... STOP RIGHT THERE :-) my beef with you, jake, was when you made the following bogus statement: >>>There is region coding on every disc. You just have to flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not.<<< with recordable dvd's, do NOT ever "flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not." ...of course you would have changed the region code mask along with that, so you would have created a dvd that is not fully legal... as was clearly explained in the link i posted. therefore, since you cannot legally change the region code mask when using recordable dvd's, REGION CODES DON'T APPLY TO RECORDABLE DVD'S. that is also clearly explained in the dvd demystified faq: http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.10 on a lighter note... there are signs my re-authored dvd is now working on one of the players it gagged on before... i used reeldvd instead of the first pro version of dvd-lab, same media and mpeg2/ac-3, except that i had to re-size the 704x480 clip to 720x480, because reeldvd can't handle different sized media. 704x480 frame size is of course dvd-legal, so i think that it's an issue with the dvd-lab muxer(??)... because the dvd-lab authored version was skipping some frames even on the 720x480 segments.

May 15th, 2004, 05:17 AM	#42
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	Yep I agree with you. BUT there are MANY MANY MANY MANY dvd apps that don't have the RCM set to '0' in the VMG and that is why I brought the point up. Even if authors think they are doing things right they might not be unless they have TFDVDEdit or IFOEdit to check and change things. MANY apps set the RCM to '192' and not '0' and others flag it differently depending where you build to. My point with this quote: >>>There is region coding on every disc. You just have to flag the regions you want to be able to see the disc or not.<<< is that even if you don't want region coding on the disc or your app doesn't have the ability to change the region settings a value will be in the RCM. Even if it's '0'. So it is region coded just set to ALL or RCM '0'. That field is never blank it's always got a number even if it's zero. BUT as you and I agree :-), LEGALLY on dvd-r it has to be '0' which is sometimes where compatibility issues come in cause apps are doing inconsistent things behind the scenes. -Jake