How close are we to dual layer DVD burner?

Sharon Fraats · January 8th, 2004, 01:09 PM

Rob I do hope thay appear soon as I would love that.

Just saw this one MacNN:

Verbatim, Kano to offer double-layer DVD+R with 8.5GB
Verbatim announced it is on target to deliver the industry's first Double-Layer DVD+R (DVD+R DL) discs in Spring of 2004. The new 2.4x DataLifePlus media nearly doubles the storage capacity to 8.5GB on a single DVD side while maintaining compatibility with existing DVD video players and DVD-ROM drives. Verbatim's target launch date is spring 2004 to coincide with DVD+R DL hardware introductions by DVD+RW Alliance members. The discs will store up to 4 hours of DVD-quality video or up to 16 hours of VHS video quality. Kano Technologies also introduced Kano ArchivMedia DVD+R double-sided (DS) media using Verbatim's technology.

Christopher C. Murphy · January 8th, 2004, 01:23 PM

Did they have any pricing information with that??

Murph

Sharon Fraats · January 8th, 2004, 07:21 PM

Went back to Macnn and then from there to both sites and there was no prices as of yet also I could not find info at Kano. Guess they did not update their websites beofore MWSF.

Elie Zakaria · January 12th, 2004, 04:36 PM

it looks like the Pioneer A06 already has dual layer recording capabilities, all you need is a firmware upgrade according to this article....
So don't throw it away yet!

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...lp=ja_en&tt=ur

Regards,
Elie

Nicholi Brossia · January 12th, 2004, 06:58 PM

That's excellent. So far, I really like my A06 and would love to be able to upgrade to dual layer recording. I figured the article would just hint to the DVR-A06 or it wouldn't be the same as the consumer model, but it flat out said all it needs is a firmware upgrade.

Christopher C. Murphy · January 12th, 2004, 07:50 PM

Check this out:

http://cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Det...RelatedID=4503

Sharon Fraats · January 12th, 2004, 10:14 PM

Thanks for the info.

As for another bit of info at http://macnn.com/ today the following was stated:

U.S. computer makers Hewlett-Packard and Dell said on Monday they would support a new DVD standard with much higher storage capacity which is being promoted by 10 electronics companies

Then I went to Reuters:

Blu-ray is competing with another new blue laser-based DVD technology from Japan's Toshiba and NEC.

Blue lasers have a shorter wavelength than the current red lasers, which allows for a thinner light beam which can read and write smaller bits of information on a disc.

Among the 10 companies promoting Blu-Ray are Hitachi, LG Electronics, Philips Electronics, Sony and Thomson.

Although the support of the two main PC makers is a shot in the arm of the Blu-ray group, the rival technology from Toshiba and NEC won the support of the DVD Forum in November.

The DVD Forum is the alliance of some 220 DVD companies, including electronics and media firms.

The DVD industry has seen other format wars. There are five different rewriteable red laser technologies on the market, many of which will not play discs recorded with a competing standard.

Crucial in the blue laser battle will be the support of the Hollywood movie studios, which are expected to adopt just one standard for pre-recorded (read-only) blue laser DVDs.

So I went to the DVDforum.org:

To which they did not confirm or deny that the standard will be made this quarter. Why all this well if Dual Layer is approved and starts selling this coming year well by mid year Blu Ray will be out and this will allow even more footage on a DVD so do you wait for the Dual or the Blu?

Jake Russell · January 14th, 2004, 11:38 AM

Dual layer option in dvdsp, as mentioned, is for replicated dvd-9 projects. Dont use dvdsp to do dvd-9 projects as the layer switch is still not correct even in 2.0.4. If you do want to use dvdsp for dvd-9 become a member of tfdvd.com and get the 'DVD-9 Maker' docs.

For dvd-10 projects you just do two dvd-5 projects and send of a DLT for each side. Or write to each side of the disc using blank dvd-10's.

The recordable dual layer discs are far different from the replicated ones. As a dvd-r is far different from a dvd-5 pressed disc.

Blu-ray will be a storage/backup media for quite some time so I wouldn't worry about it just yet :-)

Jake

Jake Russell · January 14th, 2004, 01:23 PM

There are more links on that thread I posted here in Oct 2003:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=15329

Jake

Peter Moore · January 14th, 2004, 01:55 PM

Ok so there seems to be some confusion here about dual layer disks.

The authoring software itself (the media compiler) has nothing necessarily to do with where the layer break happens. The only point the layer break comes into play is when you're making your DLT masters for replication. Then you need the right flags and protocols at the beginning of the DLTs to tell the replicators where to make the break.

In this way, you can compile a project in, say, Maestro and simply create your VIDEO_TS folder which can take up as much space as you want. You can then use another piece of software, either Maestro itself, or other software by Sonic, to split the contents appropriately to make the two layer masters onto DLTs.

The point of all this is the following: you will not need DVDSP or anything like that, most likely, to copy or even create your dual-layer movies, because the recording software will likely either choose the breakpoint for you, or allow you to choose it at the end of any VTS (which are broken up into individual files). It'll hopefully also allow you to choose OTP or PTP (opposite or parallel track protocol). OTP has a shorter lag between layers but requires layer 1 to be no greater than layer 0.

So, as long as your authoring software doesn't inherently limit your project sizes to 4.7 GB, you will in all likelihood be able to use them to create your dual layer DVDs. You will also, in all likelihood, be able to copy existing DVD-9s from folders on your hard drive (which will be 8 GB worth of files in a VIDEO_TS directory) and choose your layer break at the time of burning.

Spruce Maestro does allow you to flag a layer break at a chapter point, but you don't need to use it to create the layer break if you set the flag at time of mastering.

If anyone knows I'm wrong please correct me, but I am fairly certain as I went through this process once and I did not need to do anything special to compile a dual layer disk, which someone else took the VIDEO_TS from and I told him where to put the layer breaks, and it did not require re-compiling

Jake Russell · January 14th, 2004, 04:24 PM

Nope thats not true. The authoring app has everything to do with the process and it's not possible to make a VIDEO_TS folder in Maestro and open it on a Sonic system to author and make two DLTs for a replicated dvd-9 project(not even on the 35k+ flagship Scenarist with all the bells and whistels). Maestro(and dvdsp) use the ".layout" file, and Sonic has a ".as" file.

In your case maybe the replication house had a Spruce system and finished your project in the same authoring system which we of course realise is absolutely fine. Maestro, although a similar abstraction layer tool to dvdsp can make dvd-9's with no problem at all.

My other comment:

"The recordable dual layer discs are far different from the replicated ones. As a dvd-r is far different from a dvd-5 pressed disc."

was actually referring to the fact that replicated discs, pressed from glassmaster stampers are very different to dvd-+r's burnt from a pc/mac writer. And we should expect the same issues of recordable media to hold true when talking about dvd-9R when compared to 'hollywood' style dual layer replicated discs. It was good to raise the layer switch placement issue though,

Jake

Peter Moore · January 14th, 2004, 05:11 PM

I was told that there was a piece of Sonic software called ROM Formatter that could take any VIDEO_TS title set collection (or any data at all, as it is primarily designed for DVD-ROM titles) and create masters for you, including dual layer, allowing you to specify the layer break.

I suspect the Layout file is only necessary to allow the mastering software to allow you to more easily pick a chapter point for a layer break. But the title sets are NOT recompiled when that happens, and so a piece of software, such as this Sonic software, should be able to allow you to set a layer break point at, say, the end of a Title Set, or the end of any file for that matter, as should any DVD recording software that will allow recording of dual layer disks.

Sharon Fraats · January 14th, 2004, 05:46 PM

If you do want to place a video on a DVD and do not have the room try using DVDRemaster

http://www.metakine.com/products/dvdremaster/

We took a 6.7 Gig video and recompressed it to under 4.7 and it worked.

Jake Russell · January 14th, 2004, 06:17 PM

Yep there many tools that can be found at dvdrhelp.com that can help with ripping & shrinking issues I'm sure but thats not really the issue in this thread.

Nope the ROM Formatter can't specify the layer switch in a VIDEO_TS folder. I mean if the VIDEO_TS folder fits completely on layer 0 and the layer switch is in the ROM data you can use it to make a hybrid disc but not to make a dvd-9 video where the layer switch isn't written in the app.

On the ROM Formatter side of things it's not the best at preserving the mac forks either. There aren't many DVD-9-ROMS out there but I remember a case where ROM Formatter failed twice at replication and another app combo saved the day,

Jake

Peter Moore · January 14th, 2004, 08:36 PM

Well I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I'm just saying that information I've gotten from DVD replicators says that you can use ROM Formatter for layer breaking in DVD-Video. Additionally, it is a fact that preparing the disk for mastering is where you choose the layer break in Maestro, and it does _not_ recompile the title sets, meaning it is at least technologically possible to have a program that will do what I am talking about, and I still believe that software like that will be available for our dual layer DVD+R writers.

January 8th, 2004, 01:23 PM	#17
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Did they have any pricing information with that?? Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

January 12th, 2004, 06:58 PM	#20
Nicholi Brossia Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 389	That's excellent. So far, I really like my A06 and would love to be able to upgrade to dual layer recording. I figured the article would just hint to the DVR-A06 or it wouldn't be the same as the consumer model, but it flat out said all it needs is a firmware upgrade. __________________ Nicholi Brossia

January 12th, 2004, 07:50 PM	#21
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Check this out: http://cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Det...RelatedID=4503 __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

January 8th, 2004, 01:09 PM	#16
Sharon Fraats Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: chicago, ill Posts: 190	Rob I do hope thay appear soon as I would love that. Just saw this one MacNN: Verbatim, Kano to offer double-layer DVD+R with 8.5GB Verbatim announced it is on target to deliver the industry's first Double-Layer DVD+R (DVD+R DL) discs in Spring of 2004. The new 2.4x DataLifePlus media nearly doubles the storage capacity to 8.5GB on a single DVD side while maintaining compatibility with existing DVD video players and DVD-ROM drives. Verbatim's target launch date is spring 2004 to coincide with DVD+R DL hardware introductions by DVD+RW Alliance members. The discs will store up to 4 hours of DVD-quality video or up to 16 hours of VHS video quality. Kano Technologies also introduced Kano ArchivMedia DVD+R double-sided (DS) media using Verbatim's technology.

January 8th, 2004, 07:21 PM	#18
Sharon Fraats Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: chicago, ill Posts: 190	Went back to Macnn and then from there to both sites and there was no prices as of yet also I could not find info at Kano. Guess they did not update their websites beofore MWSF.

January 12th, 2004, 04:36 PM	#19
Elie Zakaria Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 38	it looks like the Pioneer A06 already has dual layer recording capabilities, all you need is a firmware upgrade according to this article.... So don't throw it away yet! http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...lp=ja_en&tt=ur Regards, Elie

January 12th, 2004, 10:14 PM	#22
Sharon Fraats Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: chicago, ill Posts: 190	Thanks for the info. As for another bit of info at http://macnn.com/ today the following was stated: U.S. computer makers Hewlett-Packard and Dell said on Monday they would support a new DVD standard with much higher storage capacity which is being promoted by 10 electronics companies Then I went to Reuters: Blu-ray is competing with another new blue laser-based DVD technology from Japan's Toshiba and NEC. Blue lasers have a shorter wavelength than the current red lasers, which allows for a thinner light beam which can read and write smaller bits of information on a disc. Among the 10 companies promoting Blu-Ray are Hitachi, LG Electronics, Philips Electronics, Sony and Thomson. Although the support of the two main PC makers is a shot in the arm of the Blu-ray group, the rival technology from Toshiba and NEC won the support of the DVD Forum in November. The DVD Forum is the alliance of some 220 DVD companies, including electronics and media firms. The DVD industry has seen other format wars. There are five different rewriteable red laser technologies on the market, many of which will not play discs recorded with a competing standard. Crucial in the blue laser battle will be the support of the Hollywood movie studios, which are expected to adopt just one standard for pre-recorded (read-only) blue laser DVDs. So I went to the DVDforum.org: To which they did not confirm or deny that the standard will be made this quarter. Why all this well if Dual Layer is approved and starts selling this coming year well by mid year Blu Ray will be out and this will allow even more footage on a DVD so do you wait for the Dual or the Blu?

January 14th, 2004, 11:38 AM	#23
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	Dual layer option in dvdsp, as mentioned, is for replicated dvd-9 projects. Dont use dvdsp to do dvd-9 projects as the layer switch is still not correct even in 2.0.4. If you do want to use dvdsp for dvd-9 become a member of tfdvd.com and get the 'DVD-9 Maker' docs. For dvd-10 projects you just do two dvd-5 projects and send of a DLT for each side. Or write to each side of the disc using blank dvd-10's. The recordable dual layer discs are far different from the replicated ones. As a dvd-r is far different from a dvd-5 pressed disc. Blu-ray will be a storage/backup media for quite some time so I wouldn't worry about it just yet :-) Jake

January 14th, 2004, 01:23 PM	#24
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	There are more links on that thread I posted here in Oct 2003: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=15329 Jake

January 14th, 2004, 01:55 PM	#25
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Ok so there seems to be some confusion here about dual layer disks. The authoring software itself (the media compiler) has nothing necessarily to do with where the layer break happens. The only point the layer break comes into play is when you're making your DLT masters for replication. Then you need the right flags and protocols at the beginning of the DLTs to tell the replicators where to make the break. In this way, you can compile a project in, say, Maestro and simply create your VIDEO_TS folder which can take up as much space as you want. You can then use another piece of software, either Maestro itself, or other software by Sonic, to split the contents appropriately to make the two layer masters onto DLTs. The point of all this is the following: you will not need DVDSP or anything like that, most likely, to copy or even create your dual-layer movies, because the recording software will likely either choose the breakpoint for you, or allow you to choose it at the end of any VTS (which are broken up into individual files). It'll hopefully also allow you to choose OTP or PTP (opposite or parallel track protocol). OTP has a shorter lag between layers but requires layer 1 to be no greater than layer 0. So, as long as your authoring software doesn't inherently limit your project sizes to 4.7 GB, you will in all likelihood be able to use them to create your dual layer DVDs. You will also, in all likelihood, be able to copy existing DVD-9s from folders on your hard drive (which will be 8 GB worth of files in a VIDEO_TS directory) and choose your layer break at the time of burning. Spruce Maestro does allow you to flag a layer break at a chapter point, but you don't need to use it to create the layer break if you set the flag at time of mastering. If anyone knows I'm wrong please correct me, but I am fairly certain as I went through this process once and I did not need to do anything special to compile a dual layer disk, which someone else took the VIDEO_TS from and I told him where to put the layer breaks, and it did not require re-compiling

January 14th, 2004, 04:24 PM	#26
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	Nope thats not true. The authoring app has everything to do with the process and it's not possible to make a VIDEO_TS folder in Maestro and open it on a Sonic system to author and make two DLTs for a replicated dvd-9 project(not even on the 35k+ flagship Scenarist with all the bells and whistels). Maestro(and dvdsp) use the ".layout" file, and Sonic has a ".as" file. In your case maybe the replication house had a Spruce system and finished your project in the same authoring system which we of course realise is absolutely fine. Maestro, although a similar abstraction layer tool to dvdsp can make dvd-9's with no problem at all. My other comment: "The recordable dual layer discs are far different from the replicated ones. As a dvd-r is far different from a dvd-5 pressed disc." was actually referring to the fact that replicated discs, pressed from glassmaster stampers are very different to dvd-+r's burnt from a pc/mac writer. And we should expect the same issues of recordable media to hold true when talking about dvd-9R when compared to 'hollywood' style dual layer replicated discs. It was good to raise the layer switch placement issue though, Jake

January 14th, 2004, 05:11 PM	#27
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	I was told that there was a piece of Sonic software called ROM Formatter that could take any VIDEO_TS title set collection (or any data at all, as it is primarily designed for DVD-ROM titles) and create masters for you, including dual layer, allowing you to specify the layer break. I suspect the Layout file is only necessary to allow the mastering software to allow you to more easily pick a chapter point for a layer break. But the title sets are NOT recompiled when that happens, and so a piece of software, such as this Sonic software, should be able to allow you to set a layer break point at, say, the end of a Title Set, or the end of any file for that matter, as should any DVD recording software that will allow recording of dual layer disks.

January 14th, 2004, 05:46 PM	#28
Sharon Fraats Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: chicago, ill Posts: 190	If you do want to place a video on a DVD and do not have the room try using DVDRemaster http://www.metakine.com/products/dvdremaster/ We took a 6.7 Gig video and recompressed it to under 4.7 and it worked.

January 14th, 2004, 06:17 PM	#29
Jake Russell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 177	Yep there many tools that can be found at dvdrhelp.com that can help with ripping & shrinking issues I'm sure but thats not really the issue in this thread. Nope the ROM Formatter can't specify the layer switch in a VIDEO_TS folder. I mean if the VIDEO_TS folder fits completely on layer 0 and the layer switch is in the ROM data you can use it to make a hybrid disc but not to make a dvd-9 video where the layer switch isn't written in the app. On the ROM Formatter side of things it's not the best at preserving the mac forks either. There aren't many DVD-9-ROMS out there but I remember a case where ROM Formatter failed twice at replication and another app combo saved the day, Jake

January 14th, 2004, 08:36 PM	#30
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Well I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I'm just saying that information I've gotten from DVD replicators says that you can use ROM Formatter for layer breaking in DVD-Video. Additionally, it is a fact that preparing the disk for mastering is where you choose the layer break in Maestro, and it does _not_ recompile the title sets, meaning it is at least technologically possible to have a program that will do what I am talking about, and I still believe that software like that will be available for our dual layer DVD+R writers.