Interlace Flicker on first DVD?! at DVinfo.net

Glen Elliott · July 8th, 2003, 04:32 AM

Just completed my first DVD- I encoded in Procoder @ 8000kbs CBR, yet when there is fast motion or a fast pan the image stutter or flickers. What could be the problem?

John Steele · July 8th, 2003, 05:39 AM

For encoding to DVD, the field order needs to be set at upper field first or else you will get horrible sutter like you describe.

Been there :)

John.

Glen Elliott · July 8th, 2003, 07:17 AM

Oh man!...you've gotta be kidding me. I specifically made sure it was lower fields first to match my source.

Does anyone know why DV is lower fields first and DVD has to be switched to upper fields first?

John, I hope your right- I can't wait to get home and re-encode a small section to see how it works!

John Steele · July 8th, 2003, 07:49 AM

Hi Glen,

I did know why DV and DVD are different but the reason escapes me at the moment, I'm sure it'll come back to me, but if you specified Lower first then that is definately your problem. Let us know how you get on when you change it to upper I'm sure you'll be much happier :)

John.

Glen Elliott · July 8th, 2003, 07:52 AM

Well I didn't really "specify" lower-fields first, it defaults to it.
Btw, I'm using Procoder, and used the standard NTSC MPG2 DVD template. The only other change was upping the bitrate from 6000 to 8000.

Ron Little · July 8th, 2003, 09:22 AM

I make a lot of action videos and have been making DVDs for six months.

I have never encountered the strobing effect you are talking about.

I use Main Concept encoding and it is lower field first.

Glen Elliott · July 8th, 2003, 10:06 AM

Ugh- thanks for ruining my hopes Ron. ;)
I dunno I'll have to search around on the net for more info- I'm getting conflicting stories.
The true test will be when I get a chance to actually encode some samples out to a DVD to see the results.

Ron Little · July 8th, 2003, 01:12 PM

Sorry to be a downer.

The difference may be in the two programs we are using it very well could be that with your encoder it needs to be upper field.

When I read your post I had to check what I was doing and I can confirm that my encoding is in lower field first with no problems.

Glen Elliott · July 8th, 2003, 07:57 PM

Well I tried it tonight- I switched the field order to top fields first- NO LUCK. :(

UGH- I'm so discouraged. I was so excited because this was my first wedding in which I was delivering the finished product on DVD. I don't know what I'm gonna do, what else can I try?! I'm gonna waste yet another DVD and encode a clip that shows the flickering/stuttering really bad like 10 times and keep changing the settings....place all the clips on a menu and just go to town with the dvd clicking all the clips encoded with variable settings to see which ones made a difference and which ones didn't. If that doesn't work- I don't know what I'm gonna do. AHHHH! Someone help!

Ron what NLE are you using- Vegas? I ask because Vegas has a built in MainConcept encoder. Maybe I'll try and re-encode through Vegas.

Brian Wood · July 8th, 2003, 08:06 PM

Hey, I'm using the Ligos mpeg encoder with a variable bitrate, maxium set at 7500 and average set at 6000 and I am fairly sure that I do lower fields first, I would have to check but I dont remember changing it to upper fields. Using this system I dont recall any flickers and was ironically quite impressed with the quality of the output on DVD.

Brian

Glen Elliott · July 8th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Do you have any fast pans....I mainly see it in pans or subjects that are moving quickly in or thru the frame.

John Steele · July 9th, 2003, 04:09 AM

DOH! I was 99% sure that was your problem, I've encountered it so many times over with people over the last couple of years. Oh well if I can think of anything else I'll let you know.

John.

Ron Little · July 9th, 2003, 08:20 AM

Yes, I have fast pans, truck, dolly and swish shots.

Glen, didn’t I read that you have used Adobe Premiere if you have the new version with encoding you could try encoding your finished project with Main Concept.

Just make sure you go to their web site for the update.

Or you could download a trial version to try.

What DVD authoring program are you using?

Glen Elliott · July 9th, 2003, 11:27 AM

I'm using Canopus Procoder. If I re-encode with the Mainc Concept encoder via Vegas 4.0...is there a way to actually update the encoder...or is that included in Vegas updates (ie 4.0b, and 4.0c)

Does anyone else know what I can try to fix this problem- I'm grasping straws here!

Arnaldo Paixao · July 10th, 2003, 10:45 AM

Hi Glen.

The field order issue starts with your capture card, meaning, if it uses i.e. upper field first, you have to maintain that throughout the process. So, first check on your capture card's web site for that info.

Since you say that you enconter the problem with upper or lower field first, and you mentioned stuter, maybe it's another issue; and that can be the fact that you are using CBR at 8000Kbs.

Try setting your encoder to the default DVD settings (GOP structure and all the rest) changing only the bit rate to 7000Kbs or lower. Yes, you will loose quality, but if it works, it will be a starting point to begin. Some set top players will choke with high bit rates and start to stutter.

Other issues to consider are what type of media are you using (elcheapo or Brand Name) and labels sticked on DVDs wich can give you a hard time. I'v been there, you have to be very patiente and I suggest you follow this steps to narrow the causes:

1 - Use a short clip for test purposes.
2 - Encode in default DVD settings with 7000Mbs max.
3 - Use well known brand name blank DVDs.
4 - If the set top player supports DVD-RW, use that for the tests.
5 - Don't stick labels for the time beeing.

The program you use to author your DVDs plays an important part in the process. Wich one are you using?

Good luck and best regards
Arnaldo

July 8th, 2003, 04:32 AM	#1
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Interlace Flicker on first DVD?! Just completed my first DVD- I encoded in Procoder @ 8000kbs CBR, yet when there is fast motion or a fast pan the image stutter or flickers. What could be the problem?

July 8th, 2003, 05:39 AM	#2
John Steele Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 216	For encoding to DVD, the field order needs to be set at upper field first or else you will get horrible sutter like you describe. Been there :) John.

July 8th, 2003, 07:17 AM	#3
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Oh man!...you've gotta be kidding me. I specifically made sure it was lower fields first to match my source. Does anyone know why DV is lower fields first and DVD has to be switched to upper fields first? John, I hope your right- I can't wait to get home and re-encode a small section to see how it works!

July 8th, 2003, 07:49 AM	#4
John Steele Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 216	Hi Glen, I did know why DV and DVD are different but the reason escapes me at the moment, I'm sure it'll come back to me, but if you specified Lower first then that is definately your problem. Let us know how you get on when you change it to upper I'm sure you'll be much happier :) John.

July 8th, 2003, 07:52 AM	#5
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Well I didn't really "specify" lower-fields first, it defaults to it. Btw, I'm using Procoder, and used the standard NTSC MPG2 DVD template. The only other change was upping the bitrate from 6000 to 8000.

July 8th, 2003, 09:22 AM	#6
Ron Little Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pensacola Fl. Posts: 627	I make a lot of action videos and have been making DVDs for six months. I have never encountered the strobing effect you are talking about. I use Main Concept encoding and it is lower field first.

July 8th, 2003, 10:06 AM	#7
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Ugh- thanks for ruining my hopes Ron. ;) I dunno I'll have to search around on the net for more info- I'm getting conflicting stories. The true test will be when I get a chance to actually encode some samples out to a DVD to see the results.

July 8th, 2003, 01:12 PM	#8
Ron Little Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pensacola Fl. Posts: 627	Sorry to be a downer. The difference may be in the two programs we are using it very well could be that with your encoder it needs to be upper field. When I read your post I had to check what I was doing and I can confirm that my encoding is in lower field first with no problems.

July 8th, 2003, 07:57 PM	#9
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Well I tried it tonight- I switched the field order to top fields first- NO LUCK. :( UGH- I'm so discouraged. I was so excited because this was my first wedding in which I was delivering the finished product on DVD. I don't know what I'm gonna do, what else can I try?! I'm gonna waste yet another DVD and encode a clip that shows the flickering/stuttering really bad like 10 times and keep changing the settings....place all the clips on a menu and just go to town with the dvd clicking all the clips encoded with variable settings to see which ones made a difference and which ones didn't. If that doesn't work- I don't know what I'm gonna do. AHHHH! Someone help! Ron what NLE are you using- Vegas? I ask because Vegas has a built in MainConcept encoder. Maybe I'll try and re-encode through Vegas.

July 8th, 2003, 08:06 PM	#10
Brian Wood Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: East Lansing, Michigan Posts: 77	Hey, I'm using the Ligos mpeg encoder with a variable bitrate, maxium set at 7500 and average set at 6000 and I am fairly sure that I do lower fields first, I would have to check but I dont remember changing it to upper fields. Using this system I dont recall any flickers and was ironically quite impressed with the quality of the output on DVD. Brian

July 8th, 2003, 09:12 PM	#11
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Do you have any fast pans....I mainly see it in pans or subjects that are moving quickly in or thru the frame.

July 9th, 2003, 04:09 AM	#12
John Steele Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 216	DOH! I was 99% sure that was your problem, I've encountered it so many times over with people over the last couple of years. Oh well if I can think of anything else I'll let you know. John.

July 9th, 2003, 08:20 AM	#13
Ron Little Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pensacola Fl. Posts: 627	Yes, I have fast pans, truck, dolly and swish shots. Glen, didn’t I read that you have used Adobe Premiere if you have the new version with encoding you could try encoding your finished project with Main Concept. Just make sure you go to their web site for the update. Or you could download a trial version to try. What DVD authoring program are you using?

July 9th, 2003, 11:27 AM	#14
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	I'm using Canopus Procoder. If I re-encode with the Mainc Concept encoder via Vegas 4.0...is there a way to actually update the encoder...or is that included in Vegas updates (ie 4.0b, and 4.0c) Does anyone else know what I can try to fix this problem- I'm grasping straws here!

July 10th, 2003, 10:45 AM	#15
Arnaldo Paixao Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vimeiro - Portugal Posts: 255	Hi Glen. The field order issue starts with your capture card, meaning, if it uses i.e. upper field first, you have to maintain that throughout the process. So, first check on your capture card's web site for that info. Since you say that you enconter the problem with upper or lower field first, and you mentioned stuter, maybe it's another issue; and that can be the fact that you are using CBR at 8000Kbs. Try setting your encoder to the default DVD settings (GOP structure and all the rest) changing only the bit rate to 7000Kbs or lower. Yes, you will loose quality, but if it works, it will be a starting point to begin. Some set top players will choke with high bit rates and start to stutter. Other issues to consider are what type of media are you using (elcheapo or Brand Name) and labels sticked on DVDs wich can give you a hard time. I'v been there, you have to be very patiente and I suggest you follow this steps to narrow the causes: 1 - Use a short clip for test purposes. 2 - Encode in default DVD settings with 7000Mbs max. 3 - Use well known brand name blank DVDs. 4 - If the set top player supports DVD-RW, use that for the tests. 5 - Don't stick labels for the time beeing. The program you use to author your DVDs plays an important part in the process. Wich one are you using? Good luck and best regards Arnaldo