Define "DV"

[Sean McHenry]

I don't know if we ever got into this or not but, just what is "DV". DV in some circles just means Digital Video. If that's the definition, my cell phone does DV, as does a Sony D8 or DVCam, MiniDV, DVCPro, DVCPro50, and on up the line to a Genesis in 4k files. Anything captured directly to a PC, Mac or even an iPod is a digital video as soon as it's captured.

How broad are we going with the term? If someone captures analog footage into a PC to edit it, as in VHS or Beta original material, is the fact that it's now digital enough to qualify as DV? What if I shoot and capture some 8mm, Super 8, 16mm, etc film footage via telecine or just shooting it off the wall and into my DV camera or my PC, is that not digital video as well then?

I think we should almost stick to digitally "originated" footage but that would still include Pixelvision, cell phones, iPods hooked directly to an analog camera, etc.

Not trying to be a pain as it's sort of a non issue at this point but I was just thinking, if I had a RED ONE or an XDCam, would that be digital video (DV)? What about camcorders that record on DVDs?

So many questions...

Sean

[Dylan Couper]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to call it the "Non-animated and non-still photo montage challenge?" :)

I think we are going to define the boundries as we go, but so far the only excluded things are animation and still photo montage,

[Lisa Shofner]

Would Stop-Motion fall under the allowed or not-allowed category? Some consider it "movie/film" while others consider it "animation".

But for the challenge, what is it ruled?

[Dylan Couper]

Originally Posted by Lisa Shofner

Would Stop-Motion fall under the allowed or not-allowed category? Some consider it "movie/film" while others consider it "animation".

But for the challenge, what is it ruled?

I call it animation, so have to rule out stop-motion.

[Lisa Shofner]

Ah Darn.

That's ok though, it's way more work then live action ;-)

[Ken Hodson]

I think to the extent that everything is essentially digital, so we see the DV moniker used less to refer to video being digital and not analog. To me when I see DV I automatically assume they mean DV codec.

[John Miller]

When I see DV, I associate it only with the video format defined by IEC-61834.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

Perhaps it would be more accurate to call it the "Non-animated and non-still photo montage challenge?" :)

Uh, I hate to shatter the illusions but all DV (and all film, video and other "motion pictures) is "still photo animation". All motion pictures are an illusion.

It's just animation shot at 24 fps. "No animation" would also mean no CGI, no compositing, to titles, graphics, VFX, motion tracking rotoscoping etc. not to mention we would all have to show up at your house and act our films out so you could avoid any exposure to still photographs :)

I'm a little passionate since I've made several shorts with still photos (shooting 4fps motordrive 35mm SLR and interpolating to 24fps). And I'm currently using "animation" to create a full motion Imax film about Saturn.

So I vote for striking any "rules" about what "kind" of DV piece people turn in.

[Dylan Couper]

Hey Stephen
I was actually waiting to see if anyone asked the question...

"What if I shot on a Canon 1D MkIII at 10fps..."

To which I would have answered...

"Sweeet...."


Anyway, thems the rules.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

Anyway, thems the rules.

Uh, no. Even without "thems", your rule is not clear english sentence much less a "rule".

Excluding "stop motion" and "still photo montage" can not be defined in any way that would not exclude all footage shot with a DV camera especially use of speed ramps or fast motion or time lapse or CGI. I can think of several DV challengers that used CGI animation, time lapse, speed ramps etc. We'll need "DV Challenge Lawyers" to sort it all out.

So if someone wants to take their DV camera and shoot "time lapse" of clay characters, why do you want to exclude it?

And per "stop-motion", watch this "stop-motion" short short I did a few years back (it's only 10 second long)

http://www.sv2studios.com/clients/

Or watch the trailer here - all made 100% every single frame (except text of course) a still photo montage:

http://www.outsideinthemovie.com/med...ertrailer.html

Trying to come with rules about what people can and can't submit as "DV" means you are ignoring the fact that there is not such thing as "moving" pictures. Every motion picture is a visual special effect that relies on creating the illusion of motion.

This is like Lars von Triers and the "Dogme" movement. They had a "no animation or special effect rule" conveniently ignoring that film and video are special effects. Most importantly, I saw no evidence that the Dogme films were as good or better than films made without artificial rules.

What if someone wants to do a time lapse piece? That's stop motion. Or maybe just run their short at double-speed?

I just might have to make a piece that's half "Dylan's Dogme" and half "stop motion - still photo montage" and see if anyone can figure which is which...

[Dylan Couper]

Originally Posted by Stephen van Vuuren

Uh, no. Even without "thems", your rule is not clear english sentence much less a "rule".

Jus cause I's grown up pon a 'tater farm, dozent mean I's don't no rules!



Anyway, $5 says that I'm right.

Excluding "stop motion" and "still photo montage" can not be defined in any way that would not exclude all footage shot with a DV camera especially use of speed ramps or fast motion or time lapse or CGI. I can think of several DV challengers that used CGI animation, time lapse, speed ramps etc. We'll need "DV Challenge Lawyers" to sort it all out.

Actually, I just make the decision. It's easier. It's cheaper. Have I DQ'ed someone yet? (actually, I did privately, once, but not for that)

Trying to come with rules about what people can and can't submit as "DV" means you are ignoring the fact that there is not such thing as "moving" pictures. Every motion picture is a visual special effect that relies on creating the illusion of motion.

I'm probably one of the most fun people to argue with, and to be honest, I love doing it and would be happy to engage you in this, except for two things.

1) I'm not changing my mind.

2) I have a date with a margarita and a pool of bikini clad beauties in Las Vegas in a couple hours. This seems to me just a little more important than argueing whether or not 24 frames of film in sequence is stop motion or not.

I just might have to make a piece that's half "Dylan's Dogme" and half "stop motion - still photo montage" and see if anyone can figure which is which...

Do it. I'll make up a rule right now called the SVV Rule: "Any short which lampoons Dylan's rules may be submitted in any format and created in any way."

In any case, here is why montages and animation of any type are not allowed to be the principal form of your work. They change the dynamic of the pieces created, and allow a variable that is not available to all participants. The reason for not allowing these is to keep the playing field flat and even. Having said that, you are allowed to incorporate any creative elements you want in your piece, which we've had many brilliant examples of in the past. Read again: they can be IN your film, they just cannot BE your film. How much is allowed? I will not set a rule on that, but if the primary thread of your story is displayed exclusively in one of those mediums, you are risking DQ.

I'll bring you back something from Vegas.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

Anyway, $5 says that I'm right.

You're on, though you've already lost. DV is measured in frames per second. A frame is still image.

I will take my $5 in form of tax-exempt donation to my film "Outside In" - (see how I worked yet another shameless plug in?) - donate at www.outsideinthemovie.com

Actually, I just make the decision. It's easier. It's cheaper.

Uh, no. Check out my stop motion short on Youtube plug wars. Made with $100 digital still camera in a week. It was done at 720p 24fps. And maybe search "stop-motion" on youtube - there's plenty of junk but also some incredible stuff done, cheap and easy, but creative. That's what the DV Challenge is about - right?

1) I'm not changing my mind.

Neither is the guy who insist the earth is still center of the universe http://www.galileowaswrong.com/ and he uses stop motion and time lapse photos to prove it - you gotta love it.

2) I have a date with a margarita and a pool of bikini clad beauties in Las Vegas in a couple hours. This seems to me just a little more important than argueing whether or not 24 frames of film in sequence is stop motion or not.

For some reason, I'm recalling the fast/stop motion sequence in "A Clockwork Orange"...I wonder why.

Do it. I'll make up a rule right now called the SVV Rule: "Any short which lampoons Dylan's rules may be submitted in any format and created in any way."

Ah, another "rule". I couldn't follow it, I would have to break it.

In any case, here is why montages and animation of any type are not allowed to be the principal form of your work. They change the dynamic of the pieces created, and allow a variable that is not available to all participants. The reason for not allowing these is to keep the playing field flat and even.

A nice sentiment but it won't work - what about music, crane shots, steadicam, compositing, 35mm adapters? Filmmaking ain't NASCAR - unless you plan on issuing standard kit and cloning us/you - it's not close to a level playing field. Why not just let people's creativity go and enjoy (or suffer) through the results. I will guarantee rules free = more interesting films.

I'll bring you back something from Vegas.

If it's an investor with $500k, I'm interested....

[Sean McHenry]

I have to mention, good arguing on all sides. Video however is actually measured in Fields and not frames although that term is oft applied to it. As in 30fps when they really mean 60i (interlaced fields). Some will say that you can capture in 24p. That is true but to play on a standard US television, (and even more to the point, Standard Def Broadcasting) is still 60 interlaced fields. With the exception of HD, television is broadcast in fields.

Also, Dylan is right in that live action has a completely different creative process and thought dynamic to it. Both take planning and skill, etc. but there is a manipulation of the footage one frame at a time in stop motion where as a live video has the flow of time in a specific set measurement - 60i.

All I really wanted to know is if I shoot on Super 8 and transfer it to digital for editing does that count. Personally, I don't think it should but I wanted to know for sure. Also, what about shooting the whole thing on my cell phone? I thought I would ask.

Good luck everyone.

See you all in 2 weeks.

Sean

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Originally Posted by Sean McHenry

Video however is actually measured in Fields and not frames although that term is oft applied to it. As in 30fps when they really mean 60i (interlaced fields).

I don't think you can say that. Video can be progressive or interlaced and all of it is measure in frames e.g. 60i is more correctly 29.97fps. Interlacing (fields) is just a necessary evil creating by broadcasting & other bandwidth limitations as was thus widely adopted by broadcast video. But there has always been progressive video in the past, present and future.

But either way, a field or frame is a still image.

Also, Dylan is right in that live action has a completely different creative process and thought dynamic to it. Both take planning and skill, etc. but there is a manipulation of the footage one frame at a time in stop motion where as a live video has the flow of time in a specific set measurement - 60i.

I could not disagree more. I've made over 20 shorts - live action, stop-motion, animation, narrative in various genres. Stop motion has a different feel but so does slow motion or fast motion. Shooting handheld scene on 1-chip consumer cam with natural lighting is very different process from a crane shot with 2/3" broadcast camera on a sound stage with green screen.

Again, filmmaking is not stock car racing.

As for "flow of time", I would just recommend best book I've read on the medium of film "Sculpting in Time" by Tarkovsky who was a great director that died young.

[Joey Taylor]

Obviously there are some different opinions here.

I think you should either follow the rules Dylan set, or just not do the contest.