Documentary on Discovery

[James Emory]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

... Mind you, he is higher end of the wedding market, but he's booked up for months in advance and charges a lot more photographing weddings than he did working as a cameraman for major broadcasters.

Yep, that's one reason among others why I wouldn't do weddings. They will pay a still shooter $5K-$10K and want to only pay $1K-$2K for video if you're lucky. We have a thousands invested in gear and then a few days of editing and when the hours worked are divided into the rate, it's just not worth it.

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

... I'd assume the $250 per hour guy doesn't work a 10 to 12 hour day on a wedding, so if you work out the number of hours actually worked, the final daily rate makes sense. I'd also suspect the $250 includes the kit.

That would make more sense but he wasn't specific.

[James Emory]

Originally Posted by Dave Carson

Judging from your reply, it sure sounds like your a professional!

Yes I am, and that's why I will admit that I was a bit overzealous with my response but what I said about rates and the process of project submissions to networks are facts. I meant every word I said based on the information from your initial post and replies before mine but probably shouldn't have stated it towards you like I did. Just because something is not typical doesn't mean it can't happen. However, it does sound kind of extreme going from shooting weddings to high profile artists and I still have some reservations about your claims but it really doesn't matter what I think.

Originally Posted by Dave Carson

I just filmed Puddle of Mudd in NC for Speed Street.
$500 first hour, $250 hour after, I am not performing any editing.
You sound like your getting screwed, maybe it has something to do with your attitude.

Yep, me and several thousand other people that work on projects much bigger than mine or yours are definitely getting screwed compared to your rates. You have to admit that it's kind of out of the ordinary for someone like yourself with a high end DV camera that usually shoots weddings to command that rate when others with 25+ years experience at network levels and a few hundred thousand dollars of gear like F900 and Digibeta systems, etc. only get around 1200-1500 for the day. There are no rules about what you can charge and if you have something really special that noone else can offer to get those rates then more power to you. You don't have to justify what you do but as I said in my first reply, I'm not saying it's impossible, but unlikely. If you aren't providing a very unique service to these folks paying your rates, you better hope they never discover what the typical rates are.

You weren't specific so does your rate include all of your gear and labor and do you typically work a full 10-12 hour day? Would you mind mentioning a few items on your resume and how long you have been in the industry? As far as you providing editing, I sure would hate to get that bill.

[Ash Greyson]

Originally Posted by Dave Carson

Judging from your reply, it sure sounds like your a professional!

Just fyi,

I just filmed Puddle of Mudd in NC for Speed Street.
$500 first hour, $250 hour after, I am not performing any editing.
You sound like your getting screwed, maybe it has something to do with your attitude.

If that is indeed true, you wont ever work for them again. I sometimes get emergency gigs where they dont even ASK how much I charge, they just ask for an invoice later. I could charge that much but they would never call back.

$500 is a day rate most places, even high for some markets and DV. I dont know of anyone that would get $1500 for a half day. That is more than DPs are paid on most features. On sub $5M features the DP may make that a WEEK!

I once got $700 for about 2 hours work but I dont go around saying that I make $350 an hour. My goal is to work 200 hours a month and average $50 an hour and that is a dang good living...




ash =o)

[Dave Carson]

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

If that is indeed true, you wont ever work for them again. I sometimes get emergency gigs where they dont even ASK how much I charge, they just ask for an invoice later. I could charge that much but they would never call back.

$500 is a day rate most places, even high for some markets and DV. I dont know of anyone that would get $1500 for a half day. That is more than DPs are paid on most features. On sub $5M features the DP may make that a WEEK!

I once got $700 for about 2 hours work but I dont go around saying that I make $350 an hour. My goal is to work 200 hours a month and average $50 an hour and that is a dang good living...




ash =o)

Actually, that's what they came to me and I quoted them that price, it was wired into my bank account within 2 hours, pay for a total of 4 hours. $500 here is no way a day rate I can tell you that. They didn't have to use me if they didn't want to, that's for sure.

I called almost every videographer I could when I started in this city, I didn't hear less then $1250 per day rate and thats for 8 hours. Hourly here is different, you need someone for 2 hours, no your not going to find somoene for $100. Maybe $500 or so. You need somoene for 8 hours sure, $1250 is very reasonable here.

[James Emory]

Originally Posted by Dave Carson

Actually, that's what they came to me and I quoted them that price, it was wired into my bank account within 2 hours, pay for a total of 4 hours. $500 here is no way a day rate I can tell you that. They didn't have to use me if they didn't want to, that's for sure.

Well, not only are you the exception to getting premium rates but you get paid that day and within two hours of being hired! Compared to you, all of us are working for minimum wage and having to wait as much as 30+ days to get paid. I'm moving to your town!

Myself and most of the shooters I know including sound guys don't do half days because you can't really sell the other half like you could in LA or New York and most shoots go longer than 4-5 hours anyway. We get a full day rate whether it's one hour or ten.

Originally Posted by Dave Carson

... You need somoene for 8 hours sure, $1250 is very reasonable here.

Maybe for someone with an extensive resume that shoots high end HD or Digibeta but NOT for DV/HDV and for someone that mostly shoots weddings! I sometimes hire crews myself and there's no way I would pay a shooter with a DV/HDV camera more than $750 ($500 labor and $250 gear) for 10 hours nor would any major production company that I have worked for. You might not want to move anywhere else because you will be in for a real shock outside of your golden city limits. What else have you done besides weddings and EPKs?

[Chris Medico]

I can throw out recent experience. A couple of weeks ago we did some work for Viacom in Ohio where we were shooting some car racing video for our own use. They wanted some in car video and we had the gear. We did 4 cameras on their car and also did some glidecam shots of the outside of the car. They were happy to pay us $1000 for the effort. It took us about an hour to rig and unrig the car x 3 people, 1 person x 20 min to do the glidecam work, and 1 person about 1.5hrs to download sort and put the video on their hard drive. So this included several man hours of time and the cost of use of some expensive equipment. I think it was fair and the people wanting the video seemed happy.

Not meaning to cloud the waters here but this is recent and I think a fair rate for the work we did. The in car stuff was SD but all the external stuff we shot for them was HDV. The rest of the show wasn't shot in HD so I guess it didn't really matter.

You will be able to see the work on July 27th episode of Born Country on CMT. The episode is entitled One Lap of America.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

If that is indeed true, you wont ever work for them again. I sometimes get emergency gigs where they dont even ASK how much I charge, they just ask for an invoice later. I could charge that much but they would never call back.

$500 is a day rate most places, even high for some markets and DV. I dont know of anyone that would get $1500 for a half day. That is more than DPs are paid on most features. On sub $5M features the DP may make that a WEEK!

I once got $700 for about 2 hours work but I dont go around saying that I make $350 an hour. My goal is to work 200 hours a month and average $50 an hour and that is a dang good living...




ash =o)

How can you BILL 200 hours a month? Work 200, yes, but for a freelancer to average 50 billable hours per week seems awfully high to me. Out of a 50 hour work week most people are lucky if half that is actual billable time. The rest is calling clients hustling for work, paying bills, maintaining gear, getting out invoices to clients, doing the accounting, upgrading skills & learning new software, etc, etc, etc.

[Ash Greyson]

Originally Posted by Steve House

How can you BILL 200 hours a month? Work 200, yes, but for a freelancer to average 50 billable hours per week seems awfully high to me. Out of a 50 hour work week most people are lucky if half that is actual billable time. The rest is calling clients hustling for work, paying bills, maintaining gear, getting out invoices to clients, doing the accounting, upgrading skills & learning new software, etc, etc, etc.

I didnt say I billed for 200 hours, I say I like to average $50 per hour worked. That being said, I have billed for that many several times in the last year. I happen to be in the lucky position of being booked up sometimes months in advance so I have to spend less time managing clients. In fact, I just hired someone to do that for me.



ash =o)

[James Emory]

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

They were happy to pay us $1000 for the effort.

I bet they were because they got a great deal for 4 cameras, glidecam, and a small crew! That was at least worth $2500-$3000 depending on your labor rates.

[Ash Greyson]

Originally Posted by Dave Carson

Actually, that's what they came to me and I quoted them that price, it was wired into my bank account within 2 hours, pay for a total of 4 hours. $500 here is no way a day rate I can tell you that. They didn't have to use me if they didn't want to, that's for sure.

I called almost every videographer I could when I started in this city, I didn't hear less then $1250 per day rate and thats for 8 hours. Hourly here is different, you need someone for 2 hours, no your not going to find somoene for $100. Maybe $500 or so. You need somoene for 8 hours sure, $1250 is very reasonable here.

You are in Charlotte correct? I shoot there a couple times a year and for DV stuff, people are not getting $1250+ a day. I just called a producer I work with who does lots of stuff in Charlotte and he said he pays $1250 a day for a full package in Charlotte which would include 2 people, a 2/3" Broadcast camera, all necessary lights, gear, etc. for a 10 hour day. He also said that was for high end clients like major networks, etc. many who will not accept DV or HDV. For DV and HDV he said he has never had trouble finding someone for $500 a day including their gear.

Best of luck to you Dave, you are either really good or really lucky. Either way, I would not expect those rates to hold up for very long.



ash =o)

[Chris Medico]

Originally Posted by James Emory

I bet they were because they got a great deal for 4 cameras, glidecam, and a small crew! That was at least worth $2500-$3000 depending on your labor rates.

I agree that they got a great deal. For a 3 person crew plus equipment the standard charge is $1200 per half day for the on car rigging. We were already there shooting so they saved a ton on travel and minimum times. You should have seen what they asked for in the beginning, how much they wanted and how little they wanted to pay.

It was great for a bit of extra lunch money. :)

Chris

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

I didnt say I billed for 200 hours, I say I like to average $50 per hour worked. That being said, I have billed for that many several times in the last year. I happen to be in the lucky position of being booked up sometimes months in advance so I have to spend less time managing clients. In fact, I just hired someone to do that for me.



ash =o)

Billing an average of $50 per hour worked and working 200 hours per month would yield 10 kilobucks per month gross billings. Are you saying you work 200 hours per month @ $50/hour worked or are you saying you gross $50 per billable hour ($500 per 10 hour day) for whatever portion of that 200 hours are billable?

[Ash Greyson]

Hey Steve, I like to GROSS $50 per hour worked. To be fair, this includes everything I do and all parts of my business. Some editing, some directing, some DPing, some shooting, some producing and even renting out my gear from time to time.


ash =o)

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

Hey Steve, I like to GROSS $50 per hour worked. To be fair, this includes everything I do and all parts of my business. Some editing, some directing, some DPing, some shooting, some producing and even renting out my gear from time to time.


ash =o)

But does it include time spent phoning prospective clients, paying the bills, learning new software or reading a new camera's manual, preproduction meetings, psaticipating in DVINFO <G>, etc, etc, etc? And then you need to set aside money to cover vacation time, sick time, etc? Each hour of actual billable time often needs to cover 2 or 3 or 4 hours of working time spent on tasks that aren't billable to a client but still are necessary in order for the business, or your sanity, to survive. When you add it all up and count the total number of hours spent in conducting all business related activity, $50 per billable hour can drop down into the minimum wage level pretty quickly.

[Ash Greyson]

I just looked it up and in 2007 I have "worked" an average of 188 hours a month. I do not charge hourly on most jobs, I just bid them. I keep track of my "hours" so that I can adjust my bids accordingly in the future. I have averaged $55 per hour so far this year. I dont count messing around with cameras, learning new techniques, etc. as hours. I have also hired someone to do client management for me but they work off a %. Ultimately, this is a sales business. I had 2 very similar jobs I did in the last couple months, one I made $1500, the other $8500.




ash =o)