24 or 30P at DVinfo.net

Larry Secrest · September 28th, 2012, 07:56 PM

Hello,

I'm going to film a doc about my town. The main audience is a French TV called ARTE. They told me they don't care whether I film 60i, 24 or 30P, they have very advanced facilities that can process anything and conform it to the French and German system, since ARTE is Franco-German.

Now, to keep my options as open as I can, independently of ARTE, should I shoot 24P or 30P?

I'm using a NTSC canon XH-A1, I'm in the US

THanks

Kevin Lewis · September 29th, 2012, 11:26 AM

Larry I also own the XHA1. I ve had it for almost 4 years and have only recenlty started to explore the 24p option. I typcally shoot eveything 30p and I am very happy with the results. I think it depends on the look you want. If you shoot 24p just make sure that yiu have a good understanding of how the camera will perform with the various settings. I have experimented with the 24p option (hd) and like the results, but for some reason I am hesitant to use it for an actual production, i'm not quite sure why.

Sareesh Sudhakaran · September 29th, 2012, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Secrest

Now, to keep my options as open as I can, independently of ARTE, should I shoot 24P or 30P?

I'm using a NTSC canon XH-A1, I'm in the US

Either 30p (29.97p) or 60i (59.94i) will give you the most options for delivery, in both HDTV and NTSC/PAL.

Larry Secrest · September 30th, 2012, 05:38 AM

Hi Sareesh,

In what way would 24P limit me?
Thanks
Larry

Sareesh Sudhakaran · October 1st, 2012, 09:27 PM

You can't go to 29.97 with 24p footage, without interpolation, and not many broadcasters accept such a conversion. Even if HDTV supports 24p, many broadcasters still prefer 30p, especially if they also want to broadcast in standard definition.

Therefore 29.97p is the 'safest' bet. Most prosumer camera sensor readouts are 60i anyway, and the conversion to 24p is done in camera.

Marius Tatarasanu · October 4th, 2012, 03:47 AM

I would say your safest bet would be recording in 50p/60p full HD. This way you can downscale if the need arises. You can easily go from 60 to 24, but not the other way around.

Arnie Schlissel · October 6th, 2012, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sareesh Sudhakaran

You can't go to 29.97 with 24p footage, without interpolation, and not many broadcasters accept such a conversion.

If that were true, they would never show Hollywood movies on TV. Nor would they have been able to shoot over 60 years of episodic TV shows on 35mm film.

It's a standard practice to slow 24 down to 23.976 and then insert 3:2 pulldown to spread 4 frames of film across 5 frames of video. It's not that hard to insert pulldown with After Effects or other software.

there's an explanation of pulldown here: Three-two pull down - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chris Medico · October 7th, 2012, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Secrest

Hello,

I'm going to film a doc about my town. The main audience is a French TV called ARTE. They told me they don't care whether I film 60i, 24 or 30P, they have very advanced facilities that can process anything and conform it to the French and German system, since ARTE is Franco-German.

Now, to keep my options as open as I can, independently of ARTE, should I shoot 24P or 30P?

I'm using a NTSC canon XH-A1, I'm in the US

THanks

Shoot the frame rate you feel renders your project in the best way. If you are accustomed to shooting 30p then shoot that.

There is no magic frame rate that makes your project more or less desirable to a broadcaster. If anyone rejects your project over frame rate it is an excuse to reject you but not the real reason.

Sareesh Sudhakaran · October 7th, 2012, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arnie Schlissel

If that were true, they would never show Hollywood movies on TV. Nor would they have been able to shoot over 60 years of episodic TV shows on 35mm film.

It's a standard practice to slow 24 down to 23.976 and then insert 3:2 pulldown to spread 4 frames of film across 5 frames of video. It's not that hard to insert pulldown with After Effects or other software.

there's an explanation of pulldown here: Three-two pull down - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You missed my words "without interpolation".

Arnie Schlissel · October 14th, 2012, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sareesh Sudhakaran

You missed my words "without interpolation".

No, I did not.

You also said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sareesh Sudhakaran

not many broadcasters accept such a conversion

That is not correct. All US broadcasters will accept material that has been converted from 24p to 60i (or 30i in standard def) as long as it has correct 3:2 pulldown. the practice is very common, and is as old as television broadcasting.

Sareesh Sudhakaran · October 14th, 2012, 10:50 PM

You are right. I stand corrected.

Larry Secrest · October 21st, 2012, 01:11 PM

Thanks to all for the answers.
I'll go 24P.

Ron Evans · October 21st, 2012, 09:36 PM

Is there a particular reason you want to shoot 24p? If you are going to film it makes sense. For TV it will always need to have pulldown to re syncronise with the refresh rates of the TV. Of course 24P can be shown on a 60 or 50hz refresh TV but then the frame rate is not 24P its a modified cadence to conform to the refresh rate of the TV. For NTSC that is most likely a 60hz and Europe 50Hz. Shooting for Europe this cadence changing will occur anyway from any of the NTSC frame rates. For Europe 25P would be a better choice. I am not sure if higher frame rates would provide more data for a conversion change.

Ron Evans

Sam Lee · January 29th, 2013, 12:48 PM

Aesthetically, 30P or 30PN is more pleasing to look at when you pan fast right or left in the shot. There are simply more frames to fill. 24P or 24PN is more toward scripted and carefully planned shot where you have full control. You have to be extra slow and gentle with the pan left right w/ 24P, otherwise it's has a very jerky and studer look. In fact, I often shoot at 60P and conform it to a 29.97 fps time line when I need to have nice slow motion effect. If you do lots of wild life docs, most people use Phantom cameras and go as high as 120 fps.

It all depends your style of shooting for the docs. If you like conservative, locked down shot, 24P should work fine. But if you like fast zoom, pans and all sorts of movements, 30p is much better suited. 60i is just a bit too realistic for me. It looks like a live soccer or news type. Personally 30p is just right in between 60i and 24p.

Last time I check 99% of documentary I shoot has no such luxury of a staged, planned shot. It's literally news style w/ unpredictable pans, zooms at all sorts of speeds. I've shot docs in 30P and now 30PN since 2003 and never really stick to 24P. The key is to stick with the same format and try not to mix and match (especially w/ the ##Pn format).

Heiko Saele · August 2nd, 2013, 08:34 AM

I know this is an old thread, but I have to say you all forgot what Larry said: he shoots for ARTE, which is a French/German channel, they don't broadcast in 30/60! In Germany, they have a 50i SD channel and a 720/50p HD channel.
So 30fps would be the least viable option in my opinion.

And btw. what? ARTE wants to buy a whole docu from you? Larry, that would be considered a real honor in Germany (and I guess France too). People here would start conversations with that like "when I shot this docu for ARTE..." ;)

September 28th, 2012, 07:56 PM	#1
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	24 or 30P Hello, I'm going to film a doc about my town. The main audience is a French TV called ARTE. They told me they don't care whether I film 60i, 24 or 30P, they have very advanced facilities that can process anything and conform it to the French and German system, since ARTE is Franco-German. Now, to keep my options as open as I can, independently of ARTE, should I shoot 24P or 30P? I'm using a NTSC canon XH-A1, I'm in the US THanks

September 29th, 2012, 11:26 AM	#2
Kevin Lewis Major Player Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Philadelphia, pa Posts: 705	Re: 24 or 30P Larry I also own the XHA1. I ve had it for almost 4 years and have only recenlty started to explore the 24p option. I typcally shoot eveything 30p and I am very happy with the results. I think it depends on the look you want. If you shoot 24p just make sure that yiu have a good understanding of how the camera will perform with the various settings. I have experimented with the 24p option (hd) and like the results, but for some reason I am hesitant to use it for an actual production, i'm not quite sure why.

September 30th, 2012, 05:38 AM	#4
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: 24 or 30P Hi Sareesh, In what way would 24P limit me? Thanks Larry

October 1st, 2012, 09:27 PM	#5
Sareesh Sudhakaran Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Mumbai, India Posts: 1,385	Re: 24 or 30P You can't go to 29.97 with 24p footage, without interpolation, and not many broadcasters accept such a conversion. Even if HDTV supports 24p, many broadcasters still prefer 30p, especially if they also want to broadcast in standard definition. Therefore 29.97p is the 'safest' bet. Most prosumer camera sensor readouts are 60i anyway, and the conversion to 24p is done in camera. __________________ Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.

October 4th, 2012, 03:47 AM	#6
Marius Tatarasanu New Boot Join Date: May 2012 Location: Bacau, Romania Posts: 22	Re: 24 or 30P I would say your safest bet would be recording in 50p/60p full HD. This way you can downscale if the need arises. You can easily go from 60 to 24, but not the other way around.

October 14th, 2012, 10:50 PM	#11
Sareesh Sudhakaran Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Mumbai, India Posts: 1,385	Re: 24 or 30P You are right. I stand corrected. __________________ Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa.

October 21st, 2012, 01:11 PM	#12
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: 24 or 30P Thanks to all for the answers. I'll go 24P.

October 21st, 2012, 09:36 PM	#13
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,222	Re: 24 or 30P Is there a particular reason you want to shoot 24p? If you are going to film it makes sense. For TV it will always need to have pulldown to re syncronise with the refresh rates of the TV. Of course 24P can be shown on a 60 or 50hz refresh TV but then the frame rate is not 24P its a modified cadence to conform to the refresh rate of the TV. For NTSC that is most likely a 60hz and Europe 50Hz. Shooting for Europe this cadence changing will occur anyway from any of the NTSC frame rates. For Europe 25P would be a better choice. I am not sure if higher frame rates would provide more data for a conversion change. Ron Evans

January 29th, 2013, 12:48 PM	#14
Sam Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 49	Re: 24 or 30P Aesthetically, 30P or 30PN is more pleasing to look at when you pan fast right or left in the shot. There are simply more frames to fill. 24P or 24PN is more toward scripted and carefully planned shot where you have full control. You have to be extra slow and gentle with the pan left right w/ 24P, otherwise it's has a very jerky and studer look. In fact, I often shoot at 60P and conform it to a 29.97 fps time line when I need to have nice slow motion effect. If you do lots of wild life docs, most people use Phantom cameras and go as high as 120 fps. It all depends your style of shooting for the docs. If you like conservative, locked down shot, 24P should work fine. But if you like fast zoom, pans and all sorts of movements, 30p is much better suited. 60i is just a bit too realistic for me. It looks like a live soccer or news type. Personally 30p is just right in between 60i and 24p. Last time I check 99% of documentary I shoot has no such luxury of a staged, planned shot. It's literally news style w/ unpredictable pans, zooms at all sorts of speeds. I've shot docs in 30P and now 30PN since 2003 and never really stick to 24P. The key is to stick with the same format and try not to mix and match (especially w/ the ##Pn format).

August 2nd, 2013, 08:34 AM	#15
Heiko Saele Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wurzburg, Germany Posts: 316	Re: 24 or 30P I know this is an old thread, but I have to say you all forgot what Larry said: he shoots for ARTE, which is a French/German channel, they don't broadcast in 30/60! In Germany, they have a 50i SD channel and a 720/50p HD channel. So 30fps would be the least viable option in my opinion. And btw. what? ARTE wants to buy a whole docu from you? Larry, that would be considered a real honor in Germany (and I guess France too). People here would start conversations with that like "when I shot this docu for ARTE..." ;)