Help with the craziest question I've ever heard!

Noa Put · November 23rd, 2016, 05:41 PM

You"ll be loosing 80 dollar because you'd be giving away a br player for free, I otoh would make them a quote for making the necessary dvd's they requested so they either pay for my time or they don't, in that way I don't loose any money and the client has the choice of getting what they asked for or not.

Dave Baker · November 24th, 2016, 03:24 AM

Isn't this the point you should do the old builder's trick of a noisy intake of breath and say "That's going to take a lot of work, it'll be expensive"?

Noa Put · November 24th, 2016, 04:16 AM

The problem is that the client doesn't realize what work is involved and probably thinks putting all the raw files on dvd is just a matter of copy/paste like on a usb stick, you could question why to give raw footage in the first place but that is not the issue here, it's a client expecting a service that is not agreed upon and expecting it free of charge. That's why I don't understand why some think it's a good idea to trow in a free blu-ray player, mediaplayer or even cheap laptop.

Pete Cofrancesco · November 24th, 2016, 05:20 AM

Who said I'd give them a free player? Part of your job is to educate and inform the client. They most likely want it on a dvd because that's all they know.

You can pay me $400 to encode and produce 8 hrs dvds or for $80 I'll purchase and ship to your doorstep a player you can connect to your tv watch the video I gave you on the memory stick.

Noa Put · November 24th, 2016, 05:27 AM

You said you would buy them a br player but you didn't say you would invoice them for it and apparently I assumed wrong that you would give it for free, in such a case you can better tell the client what br player they have to buy to solve their problem, I just don't see any reason why we should buy it for them, especially not because we will then be responsible to solve warranty issues or any other problem they might experience with the player.

John Nantz · November 24th, 2016, 01:49 PM

This seems like a really good time to not "tell" them anything but instead, put it in writing.

"If it isn't written, it isn't said."

Give them a few options with the associated cost then see what they want to go with.

"If you have any questions please let me know.

Sincerely,

Your dear videographer"
[or what ever]

Any answers to the questions, verbal or written, follow up in writing.

Terry Wall · November 25th, 2016, 11:25 AM

John, that's what it has come to. I sent a long, sensitive and tactfully worded note explaining what we agreed to in my contract That's what they signed for and they received--AND I provided the raw footage as a courtesy--that I usually charge an additional fee for. I went on to explain that any further services would be charged $80 per hour (same as Pete) plus the cost of media storage.

Thanks again, everyone!
~TW

Terry Wall · November 25th, 2016, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

If you have a decorator in to paint a room in your house and and he leaves you any unused paint as a courtesy, would you then expect him to come back and use the rest of the unused paint on other rooms free of charge?

Roger

Roger, I like this one! I already sent the couple a letter, but if I need any follow up, I'm usin' it!

~TW

Roger Gunkel · November 25th, 2016, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry Wall

Roger, I like this one! I already sent the couple a letter, but if I need any follow up, I'm usin' it!

~TW

I'll waive the copyright fee then ;-)

My Wife always says " Oh no not another analogy!"

Roger

David Barnett · November 25th, 2016, 04:20 PM

Oddly this crossed my mind recently as a bride I had this fall really requested having he raw footage. I did explain to her that Raw footage is just about 300+ random clips of varying lengths, and not to pretty to watch, including some focusing, white balancing, zooms etc. Still, she insisted. I ended up buying an external hard drive & sent it off along with the DVD & USB of the highlights that I send.

$50, but it crossed my mind "What if she asks for it on DVD?!". I was just prepared to say no, I can't. Hopefully buying a nice HD got that out of her mind.

Another thought tho was when I was editing I did some shooting during cocktail hour. Who knows what can be overheard in the conversations people might be having (talking about work, joking about people they know, the couple themselves etc). I felt it's a bit invasive or breach of trust to give away overheard conversations to the bride & groom, and I didn't really feel good about doing that.

David Barnett · November 25th, 2016, 04:23 PM

OT, in Premiere or your editing software can you drag over like 30 or 50 clips at a time? I never tried this, but I wonder if it sequences them all into a timeline in start to finish order. Still alot of work, just time consuming, plus burning menus unless your software can burn DVD only (no menu). Adobe can't:(

It's just too much of a slippery slope with Raw footage tbh. Customers can have verying expectations on what they're getting clips, HD, DVD, then, you create their DVD and you hear back "It's not set to any music!!".

Greg Miller · November 30th, 2016, 05:51 PM

What happens when the bride gives the raw footage to her cousin, who then produces a new edited wedding video, with credits that say, "Produced by Bride's Cousin." Are you giving away the rights to use the raw video however they want? Or, if you feel you still own the rights to it, how are you going to enforce those rights?

What if some of the raw footage includes music to which you did not obtain sync rights? Bride's Cousin includes that footage & music in his release. The local band (or whoever) sues Cousin, and he says, "Not my problem, I got this footage from Terry Wall. Sue him."

Can you say "Slippery slope"?

Mark Petereit · December 1st, 2016, 06:22 AM

Before you buy anything, find out what kind of TV they have. Their TV might be able to play the media you have already provided them all by itself and they probably don't even know it.

I have what's probably a 10-year-old Toshiba HDTV that can play media from a thumb drive plugged into a USB port on the side.

Bruce Stenman · December 1st, 2016, 02:13 PM

With a client I specify exactly what the work product will consist of an that includes the format and extent of the recording. That is what I deliver. Anything else is custom work and I feel no obligation to take on the work as it is not my problem.

You do have the option of sending them to a dubbing company that is setup to make DVD's in quantity. That is what I do as they have the duplicating machines that make the labor negligible. Have the client search for DVD services and they can send the video on a flash drive to the company.

Up front I educate clients than less is more and my job in part is to edit the content to get to what they will want to see. Doing a RAW dump is not something I would do for a variety of reasons.

Mike Watson · December 2nd, 2016, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

What happens when the bride gives the raw footage to her cousin, who then produces a new edited wedding video, with credits that say, "Produced by Bride's Cousin." Are you giving away the rights to use the raw video however they want? Or, if you feel you still own the rights to it, how are you going to enforce those rights?

What if some of the raw footage includes music to which you did not obtain sync rights? Bride's Cousin includes that footage & music in his release. The local band (or whoever) sues Cousin, and he says, "Not my problem, I got this footage from Terry Wall. Sue him."

Can you say "Slippery slope"?

This fear in particular fascinates me. The odds of any of these things happening, and (outside of the lawsuit, which we'll deal with in a minute) even if they happened... I can't see where there are any damages. So the raw footage falls into the hands of (anyone), and they re-edit it. I mean, you already shot and edited and were paid for the wedding video. Do you really think they were going to commission you for a lucrative 2nd edit? To that end, why would anyone with a wedding video even want a 2nd edit? How many versions of your wedding could you possibly watch? Most people don't even watch the first one until 10 or 20 years in!

Now... let me get this lawsuit straight. You shoot some video. You produce an edit with music you've secured the rights to. You give the raw video to the client, you're paid, and you move on with your life. Meanwhile, a family member to the couple re-edits the footage and uses some copyrighted music ... help me understand how the already difficult-to-believe re-edit resuilts in a lawsuit against you? Furthermore (this is an immediate answer to "anybody can sue anyone for anything"), can you cite a single case in all of history where this has actually happened?

November 23rd, 2016, 05:41 PM	#16
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! You"ll be loosing 80 dollar because you'd be giving away a br player for free, I otoh would make them a quote for making the necessary dvd's they requested so they either pay for my time or they don't, in that way I don't loose any money and the client has the choice of getting what they asked for or not.

November 24th, 2016, 03:24 AM	#17
Dave Baker Major Player Join Date: May 2014 Location: Brandon, England Posts: 458	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! Isn't this the point you should do the old builder's trick of a noisy intake of breath and say "That's going to take a lot of work, it'll be expensive"?

November 24th, 2016, 04:16 AM	#18
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! The problem is that the client doesn't realize what work is involved and probably thinks putting all the raw files on dvd is just a matter of copy/paste like on a usb stick, you could question why to give raw footage in the first place but that is not the issue here, it's a client expecting a service that is not agreed upon and expecting it free of charge. That's why I don't understand why some think it's a good idea to trow in a free blu-ray player, mediaplayer or even cheap laptop.

November 24th, 2016, 05:20 AM	#19
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! Who said I'd give them a free player? Part of your job is to educate and inform the client. They most likely want it on a dvd because that's all they know. You can pay me $400 to encode and produce 8 hrs dvds or for $80 I'll purchase and ship to your doorstep a player you can connect to your tv watch the video I gave you on the memory stick.

November 24th, 2016, 05:27 AM	#20
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! You said you would buy them a br player but you didn't say you would invoice them for it and apparently I assumed wrong that you would give it for free, in such a case you can better tell the client what br player they have to buy to solve their problem, I just don't see any reason why we should buy it for them, especially not because we will then be responsible to solve warranty issues or any other problem they might experience with the player.

November 24th, 2016, 01:49 PM	#21
John Nantz Trustee Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,254	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! This seems like a really good time to not "tell" them anything but instead, put it in writing. "If it isn't written, it isn't said." Give them a few options with the associated cost then see what they want to go with. "If you have any questions please let me know. Sincerely, Your dear videographer" [or what ever] Any answers to the questions, verbal or written, follow up in writing.

November 25th, 2016, 11:25 AM	#22
Terry Wall Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 164	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! John, that's what it has come to. I sent a long, sensitive and tactfully worded note explaining what we agreed to in my contract That's what they signed for and they received--AND I provided the raw footage as a courtesy--that I usually charge an additional fee for. I went on to explain that any further services would be charged $80 per hour (same as Pete) plus the cost of media storage. Thanks again, everyone! ~TW __________________ Rule #1: Don't sweat the small stuff. Rule #2: It's ALL small stuff!

November 25th, 2016, 04:20 PM	#25
David Barnett Major Player Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 951	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! Oddly this crossed my mind recently as a bride I had this fall really requested having he raw footage. I did explain to her that Raw footage is just about 300+ random clips of varying lengths, and not to pretty to watch, including some focusing, white balancing, zooms etc. Still, she insisted. I ended up buying an external hard drive & sent it off along with the DVD & USB of the highlights that I send. $50, but it crossed my mind "What if she asks for it on DVD?!". I was just prepared to say no, I can't. Hopefully buying a nice HD got that out of her mind. Another thought tho was when I was editing I did some shooting during cocktail hour. Who knows what can be overheard in the conversations people might be having (talking about work, joking about people they know, the couple themselves etc). I felt it's a bit invasive or breach of trust to give away overheard conversations to the bride & groom, and I didn't really feel good about doing that.

November 25th, 2016, 04:23 PM	#26
David Barnett Major Player Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 951	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! OT, in Premiere or your editing software can you drag over like 30 or 50 clips at a time? I never tried this, but I wonder if it sequences them all into a timeline in start to finish order. Still alot of work, just time consuming, plus burning menus unless your software can burn DVD only (no menu). Adobe can't:( It's just too much of a slippery slope with Raw footage tbh. Customers can have verying expectations on what they're getting clips, HD, DVD, then, you create their DVD and you hear back "It's not set to any music!!".

November 30th, 2016, 05:51 PM	#27
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,791	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! What happens when the bride gives the raw footage to her cousin, who then produces a new edited wedding video, with credits that say, "Produced by Bride's Cousin." Are you giving away the rights to use the raw video however they want? Or, if you feel you still own the rights to it, how are you going to enforce those rights? What if some of the raw footage includes music to which you did not obtain sync rights? Bride's Cousin includes that footage & music in his release. The local band (or whoever) sues Cousin, and he says, "Not my problem, I got this footage from Terry Wall. Sue him." Can you say "Slippery slope"?

December 1st, 2016, 06:22 AM	#28
Mark Petereit New Boot Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Florence, SC Posts: 9	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! Before you buy anything, find out what kind of TV they have. Their TV might be able to play the media you have already provided them all by itself and they probably don't even know it. I have what's probably a 10-year-old Toshiba HDTV that can play media from a thumb drive plugged into a USB port on the side.

December 1st, 2016, 02:13 PM	#29
Bruce Stenman Tourist Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Monterey, CA Posts: 4	Re: Help with the craziest question I've ever heard! With a client I specify exactly what the work product will consist of an that includes the format and extent of the recording. That is what I deliver. Anything else is custom work and I feel no obligation to take on the work as it is not my problem. You do have the option of sending them to a dubbing company that is setup to make DVD's in quantity. That is what I do as they have the duplicating machines that make the labor negligible. Have the client search for DVD services and they can send the video on a flash drive to the company. Up front I educate clients than less is more and my job in part is to edit the content to get to what they will want to see. Doing a RAW dump is not something I would do for a variety of reasons.