New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

[Cliff Totten]

Just saw the C200 in person today at InfoComm. I wanted to make absolutely sure that the HDMI was indeed locked down to 8bit. Sadly, they fully confirmed this. What a shame that Canon crippled this beautiful camera this way.

I told them this little fact completely killed it for me. I have zero use for CLog in a low spec 4:2:0 8bit CODEC and very little use for raw sensor data on small cards. The only thing I want this camera for is 10bit log in external ProRes. And, this C200 cant do that simple thing for me because the C300 needs protection.

Its officially off my radar screen now. The EVA1 right now is in my sights for Christmas.

They told me they understood my problem with the camera and would pass it along to Canon management on the final show report.

[Sigh].....oh well. What can you do?

"If you dont canabolize yourself, than somebody else will" - Steve Jobs

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

I have zero use for CLog in a low spec 4:2:0 8bit CODEC and very little use for raw sensor data on small cards.

Clog was built for 8-bit 4:2:2. Shooting 10-bit in Clog gives you the basic benefits of 10-bit color, but nothing in regard to Clog. Clog2/3 is for 10-bit.

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

"If you dont canabolize yourself, than somebody else will" - Steve Jobs

Your quoting of the late CEO and co-founder of Apple raised a lot of questions in my mind. First, did he really use such bad spelling and grammar when he talked? :-} (he didn't), did he actually say such a thing (he did), and what was he really talking about when he said it.

Back in 2007, Apple was riding high on sales of it's iPod, an innovative product that, along with the iMac, led to its recovery from the doldrums of the Sculley-Gil Amelio era, a period where apple's overlapping product lines led to market confusion, declining sales and profits turned into losses. As iPod sales began to crest, Apple announced the iPhone, a revolutionary product that, for the most part made the iPod, it's biggest selling product in units and profits, obsolete. History of course will look back on this new product as perhaps the greatest success in technology history, as Apple's revenue has grown more than ten-fold since its introduction. When Apple "cannibalized" the iPod, it was to shift the fundamental axis of the company's trajectory, and it was done to a product line that had matured, was at the end of its growth period, and largely, had run it's course.

Jobs, otherwise, was famous for protecting Apple's products, by focusing on incredibly lean product lines with almost no overlap. Apple products during the Jobs period had an elegant "uniqueness". His goal was to get you to buy multiple apple products versus cramming all the features in the world into one single gadget.

So you, Cliff, have placed the importance of one single i/o feature of the Canon C200, on par with Apple's destruction of the iPod in favor of the iPhone. In fact, one could argue that Canon, with the C200, by offering a new approach to RAW, is doing something closer to what Steve Jobs had in mind. For many users, the offering of a simplified RAW will make this camera seem MORE attractive than the C300II to some users.

Canon has always struck me as an Apple compared to Sony's IBM. It has generally eschewed headline features (like speed) over a certain elegance of the product. When it does innovate, like it did with DPAF, and it's now doing with its approach to RAW, it does so to shift it's own axis, but also that of it's customers.

[Cliff Totten]

Yeah, my Steve Jobs quote is just a general concept that applies to all industries. I really dont care about Jobs saying it or it being specific to Apple products. I think its just a good "general" term and I think it applies to all the camera companies. Henry Ford could have said it and it's still relevant.

For me, at that price, 8bit 4:2:0 video is not what I want. For me, raw sensor data is great but not on expensive CFast media. Anybody know what a single 512gig CFast card costs? I want long form 1-2 hour 10bit "video" recordings.

For me, I need 10bit video into ProRes. I can even live with no internal recording at all. 4:2:0 8bit is useless for 4k high quality color grading. Panasonic will provide that AND 5.7k raw data. I strongly suspect that Sony will also have a lower cost 10bit answer to the EVA-1 at IBC too.

Its very possible that the C200 could be THE most expensive 8bit 4:2:0 "video" locked down camera on the market. No, raw sensor data is not "video".

Look, i get it. Many people will pay any price and go to the ends of the Earth to get "Canon colors" but for me, I think that blocking out external recorders is going to far for me to accept. Especially when there are other extremely attractive and higher spec options for that same cost.

If you like the C200, thats cool. I did love it myself until I found out they killed my 4k ProRes recorders. Luckily I will have some other choices soon.

Im pretty sure this locked HDMI thing makes Panasonic and Sony happy as Hell. :-)

[Rakesh Malik]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Its very possible that the C200 could be THE most expensive 8bit 4:2:0 "video" locked down camera on the market. Raw is not "video".

Raw Light is however a way to enable end users to TREAT it like video... like the way that RedCode works; you don't HAVE To transcode it into an editor friendly format if you have a decent GPU in your system these days.

I suspect that Canon is banking on that, though odds are Red's scalable implementation will continue to exceed it in terms of efficiency. Red's put a lot of optimization time into that.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Yeah, my Steve Jobs quote is just a general concept that applies to all industries.

General statements of this nature cannot, by their very definition, be true.

For me, raw sensor data is great but not on expensive CFast media. Anybody know what a single 512gig CFast card costs? I want long form 1-2 hour 10bit "video" recordings.

Then there are other options for you, including a GH5 + Shogun. Or even a GH4 + Shogun.

But for some reason you don't want those other options.

[Rakesh Malik]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

Then there are other options for you, including a GH5 + Shogun. Or even a GH4 + Shogun.

But for some reason you don't want those other options.

Even a Raven is in the same price range... and has both RAW recording options as well as ProRes. ;)

[Cliff Totten]

Dont get me wrong. I appreciate the coolness of raw-light files. Im glad the C200 does this.

However, as much as I love it, would have traded that feature for an unlocked 10bit HDMI output. If im going to shoot a 1 or 2 hour concert or play, Id much rather have a 10bit ProRes video file. Short raw data files are nice but I dont want long form recordings in 4:2:0 8bit.

Its an HDMI 2.0 chipset. So, its quite possible that Canon could reverse their 8bit cripple with a firmware revision. Ill be crossing my fingers all summer long.

[Noa Put]

If im going to shoot a 1 or 2 hour concert or play

Are you planning on buying the c200 for concerts/plays? Are you not better of getting a fixed lens camera with a motorized zoom for this purpose?

[Cliff Totten]

Dynamic range with log gamma is what I'm after. And there are allout more things out there to shoot as well. Most fixed lens camcorders are rec709 with 6-7 stops of latitude.

[Noa Put]

Yeah but for concerts and plays they are a better choice.

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

If im going to shoot a 1 or 2 hour concert or play, Id much rather have a 10bit ProRes video file.

I don't know any guys shooting theatrical that do a lot of grading to their footage. And when I do, I'm usually reducing contrast and saturation unlike most other subject matter.

FWIW ...this is C300 HD 4:2:2 8 bit (equivalent to 4:2:0 4k 8 bit). Graded from C-log. I don't remember if this was shot to card or recorder...either way...still 8 bit, and I think it looks pretty good.

Civic Ballet SLO Nutcracker 13 Highlights on Vimeo

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Rakesh Malik

Even a Raven is in the same price range... and has both RAW recording options as well as ProRes. ;)

You have no idea what you're talking about. The Raven is $9k for the body, which doesn't include a display. Every 120GB Red Mag is $850. It's a crop sensor and not even close to the same price.

[Rakesh Malik]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

You have no idea what you're talking about. The Raven is $9k for the body, which doesn't include a display. Every 120GB Red Mag is $850. It's a crop sensor and not even close to the same price.

I thought the C200 was also $9000... then realized that was the price in Euros. The crop is pretty minimal from Super 35 though. And you get 120 fps in 4.5K, and don't need an external recorder for 10-bit ProRes...

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Rakesh Malik

The crop is pretty minimal from Super 35 though. And you get 120 fps in 4.5K, and don't need an external recorder for 10-bit ProRes...

Yet you don't own one, and it makes no sense in the context, so why are you pushing for it? The crop is 1.87 to Full Frame, and even higher in 2K. ProRes is only 2K, so that's a 3.74x crop for all ProRes shooting. And you still haven't considered the display costs and the $850 per 120GB Red Mags. It's not even an option, and to continually suggest one in this thread continues to render an example of your poor suggestions.