New Canon Cinema EOS C200 and 200B

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

Oh I think there's plenty of reasons to give us 10 bit 4:2:2 in the C200 - happy customers, a superior product that has a wider range of codes to support a variety of shooting needs, better competition with similar priced cameras

All of those are true. All of those would immediately kill demand for their higher-priced model. That's not good business.

[Steve Burkett]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

All of those are true. All of those would immediately kill demand for their higher-priced model. That's not good business.

It says something of their higher priced models that they have to remove 10 bit 4:2:2 from the C200, a feature available in the FS7 and EVA1 in order to protect sales of such models.

My Panasonic GX80, G80 and GH4 whilst limited by their form factor are at least consistent in their codecs - delivering 4K at 100mbps throughout, despite variations in price. Canon in comparison, is all over the place - their 4K codec available on the XC-10 differs from the 5d Mark IV, which differs from the C200, which differs from the C300. I confess I prefer Panasonic's way of nobbling their cameras, by removing features, whilst keeping a consistent codec throughout.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

I confess I prefer Panasonic's way of nobbling their cameras, by removing features, whilst keeping a consistent codec throughout.

I believe it's because Panasonic has nothing to lose. Varicam is starting to gain traction, helped by it being an approved Netflix camera, but no where near how often I see an Alexa Mini, Epic-W. I know one person here in Austin that has an LT model. And the EVA1 is serious going to undercut that lower-priced model (to the Varicam 35) because you lose almost nothing with it other than 12-bit 444 in 2k/1080. In exchange you get everything else, including full Vlog (not Vlog L) and the ability to shoot to cheaper SD cards vs P2 Express ($500 vs $1150 for 256GB). That's quite a nice tradeoff in terms of price. I love my 12-bit 444 mode on my C300 II, but if that's the only difference, it's not worth it.

[Cliff Totten]

When companies cripple lower cameras to protect higher models, they must assume that a higher "was" about to get sold but was "stolen" by the cheaper model. This is really just a guess on the company's part. There is no way to really know how much higher model money was lost to a cheaper model with great specs.

Camera companies "asume" cheaper customers "would have" paid more to get the higher model of the lower one was just crippled a bit more.

Its a big roll of the dice for camera companies to predict "lost" sales of more expensive models. But I do think Panasonic is being extraordinary agressive with cost to feature ratio today. They are not fearing canabolism as much a Sony and Canon are right now.

I think Panasonic will be handsomely rewarded with good profit numbers next year because if this.

[Barry Goyette]

If every company put the same features in their $7k cameras that they did in their $35k cameras, they wouldn't sell any $35k cameras, and they probably their $7k cameras wouldn't have half the features they have now because no one would be innovating.

The same company that makes the the 2.4 million euro Bugatti also makes the $20k Volkswagen Golf. I gotta tell you, VW has no Idea how many sales they are missing by not putting 16 cylinders and 1500hp into their econoboxes. They are leaving money on the table. Totally. :-)

[Cliff Totten]

I would venture to guess that this company survives more on its "Volkswagon" brand more than it does on its "Bugatti" brand. I would guess that its real bread and butter is its global "Volkswagon" brand and "Bugatti" is just there for show or status or to "suppliment" the "Volkswagon" brand.

Its really hard to say. Panasonic is going to sell a TON of EVA-1's....I mean ALOT of them. EVA-1's could sell a 20 to 1 ratio over the Varicam LT ( next higher model). Hell, it could be a 50 to 1 ratio for all we know. With profit margins being what they are, Panasonic could rake in MUCH more money on the EVA-1 side than it could ever hope for on the Varicam LT side.

The whole point is to make the biggest money possible. Sometimes canabolizing yourself can give you better profits than if you tried too hard to protect yourself.

I dont believe there is any reliable way to know if your EVA-1 sold like crazy....if that actually "hurt" Varicam LT sales. And....even if it did partially hurt the Varicam LT you might easily make up for that loss on huge EVA-1 sales.

Im pretty sure Panny would gladly accept very high profits if that was the end result no matter which model gave it to them.

Do Bugatti buyers say; "I love the Bugatti but I think I'll go with the Volkswagon because they turbochared and added nice leather seats in the VW this year"

[Barry Goyette]

:-) Cliff..

Canon has decided where the divisions are between their product lines pretty successfully for a lot of years...I just don't understand why you are so worried for them. Is it because panasonic is just going to steal all their business because they showed off a little hollow plastic box (filled with sand to make it "feel right") and announced a few highlight specifications? I've been around this game a very long time and I've seen panasonic do this exact thing on many occasions...it's their thing...the empty prototype. I've seen them show the same dummy two NAB's in a row...This Eva that you're all sweaty about isn't even a camera.

The week that Canon showed off the C300 mark II for the first time, RED announced their Raven. Promising to deliver it within weeks of the announcement. (not sure how they did on that promise, but I do know that Jarred Land has said that camera was the biggest mistake RED ever made, because it fundamentally changed the price point for their customer). I was sitting next to Tim Smith from Canon that day, and he was a little amused by the whole thing. "Laughing all the way to the bank" he chuckled. "I'm going to sell a hell of a lot of lenses because of what RED did today, (Raven is EF only) and I make way more profit on each of those lenses than they're going to make off that camera." I'll be willing to bet he said the same thing after Mitch's announcement at CineGear.

Here's the thing...before Sony killed it's middle tier with the FS7, there was a price point around $15-20k for these cameras. That tier is going away...because the upstarts and now the adults are going to start fighting for the $7-10k customer. The problem is this...do you really think there is 5-7k more cost to build a C300II or an F5 or and F55 than there is a C200 or an fS7-5? There is probably about $500 difference and maybe less. That difference in price is all profit, which means these companies are all heading towards a "lose money on every camera, make it up in volume" business model, just to maintain market share.

Except for the ones that make and sell a lot of lenses. Those guys want a lot of cameras on the streets. I'm curious to know if you know which of the top two lens manufacturers have a professional video division.

Something tells me Canon hopes Panasonic sells a million EVA-1's.

[Danilo Del Tufo]

There’s one thing that I haven’t understood : When do you shot RAW you must select a LOG profile? The CRM files (RAW Light files) without C-LOG are fully colorized or they have a flat look?

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Danilo Del Tufo

When do you shot RAW you must select a LOG profile? The CRM files (RAW Light files) without C-LOG are fully colorized or they have a flat look?

All the CRM files will have Clog3 as the look on them, nothing else will be available.

[Danilo Del Tufo]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

All the CRM files will have Clog3 as the look on them, nothing else will be available.

So it's not clear for me if you can select also C-Log2, because you're saying if I've understood clearly that C-Log 3 is baked into CRM files.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Danilo Del Tufo

So it's not clear for me if you can select also C-Log2, because you're saying if I've understood clearly that C-Log 3 is baked into CRM files.

Clog2 is not available on the C200. Only Clog for the 8-bit (as a choice) and Clog3 for the raw files (baked in).

[Barry Goyette]

You can choose Clog2 or Clog3 (plus BT.709, DCI, Wide DR gammas) when converting the CRM files in Canon's Raw Development program. CRM files are shot in Canon's Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut, Clog3 is not "baked in".

From the C200 Post production Brief available from Canon:

"C200 captures its RAW information in a proprietary RAW Gamut and RAW Gamma. This data needs to be taken from their RAW spaces, and conformed into one of the many gamma curves or color spaces to begin the post-production process. The footage from the EOS C200 can be conformed into a wide range of spaces, from Cinema Gamut down to BT.709, and from Canon Log 2 to Wide DR. The choice is yours and dependent on the amount of post-production resources you’re planning to allocate. However, if you are shooting in the RAW format presumably you’re going to want to take full advantage of the information captured utilizing a combination of Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut. This Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut combination is the most ideal starting point for an HDR workflow, providing the full 15 stop dynamic range the sensor has to offer, as well as the widest range of encoded colors."

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

You can choose Clog2 or Clog3 (plus BT.709, DCI, Wide DR gammas) when converting the CRM files in Canon's Raw Development program. CRM files are shot in Canon's Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut, Clog3 is not "baked in".

This is very different from the previous Canon raw format. I wonder if they'll add it to the C300 II/C700.

[Danilo Del Tufo]

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

You can choose Clog2 or Clog3 (plus BT.709, DCI, Wide DR gammas) when converting the CRM files in Canon's Raw Development program. CRM files are shot in Canon's Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut, Clog3 is not "baked in".

From the C200 Post production Brief available from Canon:

"C200 captures its RAW information in a proprietary RAW Gamut and RAW Gamma. This data needs to be taken from their RAW spaces, and conformed into one of the many gamma curves or color spaces to begin the post-production process. The footage from the EOS C200 can be conformed into a wide range of spaces, from Cinema Gamut down to BT.709, and from Canon Log 2 to Wide DR. The choice is yours and dependent on the amount of post-production resources you’re planning to allocate. However, if you are shooting in the RAW format presumably you’re going to want to take full advantage of the information captured utilizing a combination of Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut. This Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut combination is the most ideal starting point for an HDR workflow, providing the full 15 stop dynamic range the sensor has to offer, as well as the widest range of encoded colors."

Thanks Barry, but how do you choose the Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut if you directly import in Da Vinci without using Canon's Raw Development program?

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

This is very different from the previous Canon raw format. I wonder if they'll add it to the C300 II/C700.

You'd think it would be possible, but I kinda doubt it will ever happen....(I've said forever that 4kp60 should be possible on the C300markII, and that's never happened :-)

-- maybe the C700, as it will likely be 2-3 years before they mark II it.

Originally Posted by Danilo Del Tufo

Thanks Barry, but how do you choose the Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut if you directly import in Da Vinci without using Canon's Raw Development program?

Dunno. Don't use DaVinci Resolve and I haven't seen the beta yet. Reading between the lines in the PP Brief I posted here earlier, it would seem that you'd be working with their Raw Gamma as opposed to one of the LOGs...which at first seems strange, but that's really how you traditionally work with RAW files in say Photoshop (along with some metadata that gives you a linear preview). It may be that there is an ingest profile similar to an ACES workflow that converts to a specific LOG or something else altogether. You might pose this question to Seb over at C5d, as he's apparently done some work with Resolve and the CRM files when he reviewed the camera...