Panasonic AG-UX180 & AG-UX90

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I didn't know they used different sensors but they're both 1" and the 180 is a higher end model. Point being I have a point of reference. Do you own or use the UX180? I wouldn't base my opinion on one review. It's a very new camera I know the dvx200 had a noise issue on its release that a firmware update fixed. But without any other corroborating reviews I wouldn't jump to any conclusions.

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

I don't put much weight in his review because I own the UX90 that uses the same sensor. It's not without flaws but the image quality is fine.

It's always a red flag when someone resorts to hyperbole. The noise at 0db on a sunny day is unusable? Did he forget to take the lens cap off?

I've read enough complaints from people do to their misuse or their unrealistic expectations. "I returned this dslr because the audio is unusable!"

Yes they are both 1" type but look at this early reference information UX Series | 4K CAMCORDER | Broadcast and Professional AV The UX90 is likely a 1" sensor used by other still cameras and maybe even the Sony 1" models like the AX100 it is quoted as having around 18Mpixels. The UX180 only has 8.79 . So individual pixel area is much bigger for light gathering etc. I believe Barry has stated it has a 1 stop advantage over the UX90.

No I do not have either yet but I am considering the HC-X1 as I have no need for SDI and in Canada the difference is $700 for something I do not need.

Ron Evans

EDIT: The UX90 crops in to a 8.70 area of the sensor for UHD and thus the wide angle moves to 35.4mm. There may be other technical reasons why it is also limited to 30P in UHD.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

You are missing my point the reviewer is saying the 180 is unusable because the noise it exhibits @ 0db on a sunny day. That is ludicrous. The UX90 despite the sensor being less sensitive delivers a very nice image without any appreciable noise under those conditions making his complaints about the 180 more ludicrous. People make these statements like this camera is terrible but compared to what?

[Antony Tsioukas]

Originally Posted by Ed Arszyla

It would make absolutely no difference for your purposes, you wouldn't need SDI and timecode at all. If you ever did need to connect to a switcher in a TV studio, most newer switchers use HDMI also, which of course, the HC-X1 has.

The problem on HDMI is the distance. Without a repeater you can't catch 100m :), not even 10-15m.

Of course SDI cable is more stable, HDMI may have problems on connector after a lot of usage.

[Antony Tsioukas]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

You are missing my point the reviewer is saying the 180 is unusable because the noise it exhibits @ 0db on a sunny day. That is ludicrous. The UX90 despite the sensor being less sensitive delivers a very nice image without any appreciable noise under those conditions making his complaints about the 180 more ludicrous. People make these statements like this camera is terrible but compared to what?

Check Dnavas posts (22/12 & 28/12) on other Dvxu* forum in Panasonic UX180 thread.

He upload a lot of interesting mp4 records without editing on his google drive. If the settings weren’t wrong, there is small noise (take a close look in editing) on Panasonic UX180 even in daylight.

I am wondering if Sony Z150 have the same noise. If someone can share some Sony Z150 records, it would be useful. Unfortunately, you can’t see this noise on YouTube, Vimeo & other sites, only from direct records.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Just reading what you said only confirms my belief that his review isn't reliable. He sounds like the type of guy who scrutinized video with a magnifying glass.

What I've come to learn all cameras exhibit noise in the shadows and yes even @ 0db. Granted some more than others. Cameras in addition do a lot of processing to remove noise. Ever look at unprocessed log video you'd be shocked.

The reviewer characterizes the camera as "unusable" . By his standards what camera would be usable?

[Nate Haustein]

Ok, this is the most boring video ever but I did it and here it is. Shot with 12dB the whole time and adjusted the aperture for exposure. Film Like 3 gamma, Still-Like Matrix. Minor contrast adjustments and some stabilization. Excuse the messy office. Hopefully there will be something more interesting to shoot in the next few days, but it's -5 degrees outside right now and I'm not keen to go outside.

Panasonic UX180 Interior Test 12dB Gain - YouTube

[Mark OConnell]

Looks great.

I agree! And with 12db gain too.

Maybe the bad review on B&H was due to:
1.) operator error
2.) defective camera
3.) a negative review from a competing company attempting to make them look bad

[Antony Tsioukas]

Originally Posted by Nate Haustein

Ok, this is the most boring video ever but I did it and here it is. Shot with 12dB the whole time and adjusted the aperture for exposure. Film Like 3 gamma, Still-Like Matrix. Minor contrast adjustments and some stabilization. Excuse the messy office. Hopefully there will be something more interesting to shoot in the next few days, but it's -5 degrees outside right now and I'm not keen to go outside.

Panasonic UX180 Interior Test 12dB Gain - YouTube

Nate, can you upload somewhere the original records of that video? (not all just few seconds)

[Nate Haustein]

Here ya go: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qbgi8j9nt...ZuD8FUu0a?dl=0

[Antony Tsioukas]

Thanks Nate, we are talking for the same small noise.

I load it on editor and even on 100% of zoom I see this small noise. It’s not something important, x264 encoding will remove the most of the noise, but if you need to crop or to make some digital zoom to correct the frame it should a little problem. Of course we can use noise reduction software, but render will take longer.

The good is that it produces the same noise even on 12db, and that’s impressive.

By the way, as I look more shots, I think that is more like jpeg artifacts than noise. Maybe it’s the codec and not the lens. Or as Pete says, all cameras have the same small noise, unfortunately I can’t compare it for example with a Sony FS7 type of camcorder to see raw shots.

Thanks again.

[Nate Haustein]

Anthony, I'm glad to help out in your research. That being said, I think you might be expecting too much from this particular camera. When it all comes down to it, you have a small-ish, high resolution 4K sensor, recording a highly-compressed codec onto SDXC cards in 8-bit. In fact, I would say that the compressed UHD footage is really helped by that noise in order to reduce 8-bit banding.

Just for kicks, I put another clip in that dropbox link I posted earlier, a scene I shot with the Sony A7S2. While the sensor is vastly superior to the UX180, it records internally to a very similar codec: 100mbps XAVC-S UHD at 8-bits. I think that it exhibits some very similar characteristics. You might need to put a little contrast/saturation grade on it.

Now, I'm not defending the UX180. It does have noise, and I do see it. But the real question is does it look "good enough" for the types of projects it's meant to be used on, and does it look good enough for you to be happy with it. I think that for certain projects where a shooter needs a grab and go camera, it really seems like a great option. I'm impressed so far in that regard. If I was shooting a cinematic style video, the UX180 wouldn't be my first choice. I'd use a super 35mm or full frame camera to do that, like the A7S2 or FS7 you mentioned before. A camera that records on a large sensor, in a robust codec and a higher bit depth.

BUT :
I don't want to go shoot a low budget event with a FS7. I don't want a half dozen lenses. I don't want 480mbps 4K XAVC-I files to deal with. I also don't want to spend 3-5x the amount of money on a camera if projects don't require it. Also, if you've ever done sporting events, news, concerts, conferences, or pretty much anything that you don't get to yell "Action!" and "Cut!," you know how much it sucks to shoot those things with interchangeable lens "cinema" cameras. That is where a camera like this shines. In the cinematic stuff? Not so much.

That's a decision for anyone interested in purchasing a camera. What will they actually be using it for? If it's for work? Or is it for you? If it's for work, think about what would make the job the easiest, most profitable for your business, and give the expected results for the client. If the camera is just for you, don't try to force yourself to like the images - if they don't make you happy now, they never will. If you need to shoot RAW video of you cat to be satisfied, that's awesome - it's only a terrible choice if you're trying to run a business and put food on the table with your video work.

I believe that to look so closely for noise in footage is a losing battle. As you mentioned, the noise disappears on YouTube! Besides handing over raw files or MAYBE BluRay discs, how would an end viewer ever notice it? Even 99% of people have their HDTVs set up to do "noise reduction" or "reality creation" or whatever other crappy processing comes standard. I'd even go so far to say that the vasty majority wouldn't notice the noise even if it was there...but that's an argument for another day :)

TL;DR:
If image quality is the most important thing to you at all costs, don't get this camera, especially if you prefer to shoot cinematic style content. If you want a capable do-it-all camera for fast moving shooting, I think it's a very decent choice.

[Bryce Comer]

Just had to say well said Nate! Great advice.

[Antony Tsioukas]

Nate, I can’t agree more with you… but the problem is that sometimes clients disagree with that. Yes, UX180 it’s a big improvement for my current equipment, but I have to do the right choice on a “logical” price.

Sony Z150 was good for me until I found the limitation with LCD, Output and 4K recording (of course there are more limitations but I said I can live with that). UX180 doesn’t have a lot of features that Z150 does, but it’s more a camcorder and not a firework (sorry Sony but you think more the marketing and not the real life)

I will never use an FS7 type camera just for conferences and small events (my job is to stream live conferences, with of course the on demand option), because I will never get the money of my investment back. But always we search for the perfect.

For me UX180 is enough, and I don't like it, but I can “live” with that small noise (I am close to buy 2 camcorders to cover my events).

Thanks again.