BlackMagic - URSA Mini

Mike Watson · May 7th, 2015, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hewat

And sure the sensor is older, but it's upgradable! So in a year or two years (or conceivably forever) you'll always be able to replace just a sensor. It seems like a much better investment in both the short term and the long term. Am I wrong about this?

This never works out. You can replace the engine in your car when a more fuel efficient one comes out, but given the cost of the engine and the cost of installing it, you'd do better to sell (or junk) the car and buy a new one.

I haven't seen the upgrade options for BM specifically, but I've never had a good experience with an "upgradable" central part of a piece of equipment. Never pencils out.

Rakesh Malik · May 7th, 2015, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Watson

This never works out. You can replace the engine in your car when a more fuel efficient one comes out, but given the cost of the engine and the cost of installing it, you'd do better to sell (or junk) the car and buy a new one.

I haven't seen the upgrade options for BM specifically, but I've never had a good experience with an "upgradable" central part of a piece of equipment. Never pencils out.

They've pulled it off for one generation at least, since they started with a 4K sensor and are now offering as an upgrade a significantly nicer 4.6K sensor, at least on paper. The big question is, how far can they go?

Red's been able to stretch parts out across several generations, but then you can buy an Ursa Mini for the price of a Red Touch display, or an Ursa Mini + an AJA Cion for the price of a Dragon upgrade ;)
Not that you'd necessarily WANT to do that, but you get the point.

Dylan Couper · May 7th, 2015, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakesh Malik

I'm #2 in the preorder queue with my vendor, so hopefully you'll be able to see some footage fairly soon. I'm planning on dragging that beast up a mountain or two as well as using it in studio shoots, so we'll see. :)

I hope you don't plan on holding your breath for that "SOON".
FWIW, I'm #1 on the list of one of the largest Blackmagic dealers, and realistically, having been #1/#2 on every pre-order on every BMCC in the past...
I don't expect this camera until September/October, at earliest.

Also.... Sorry... I'm with Mike Watson on the whole concept of the "upgrade". You're better off just tossing your old one in the trash and buying a whole new one in the case of low cost cameras like the BMCC, where the downtime is more expensive than the upgrade.

Rakesh Malik · May 8th, 2015, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

I hope you don't plan on holding your breath for that "SOON".
FWIW, I'm #1 on the list of one of the largest Blackmagic dealers, and realistically, having been #1/#2 on every pre-order on every BMCC in the past...
I don't expect this camera until September/October, at earliest.

That's why I said "hopefully" :)

I suspect that you're right about that; odds are these guys will be delayed quite a bit. I'm hoping not, but BMD doesn't exactly have a great track record in that regard.

Quote:

Also.... Sorry... I'm with Mike Watson on the whole concept of the "upgrade". You're better off just tossing your old one in the trash and buying a whole new one in the case of low cost cameras like the BMCC, where the downtime is more expensive than the upgrade.

BMCC, yes. Ursa though, they actually pulled off one upgrade. The Mini is in the same class as the BMCC though; it's an all-in-one unit, so when it's time to upgrade, it's also time to sell off the old one.

Lawrence Bansbach · May 9th, 2015, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakesh Malik

Making it more modular would raise its production cost quite a bit.

It would probably also compromise the camera's ergonomics.

Rakesh Malik · May 9th, 2015, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bansbach

It would probably also compromise the camera's ergonomics.

You're probably right about that.

Larry Secrest · June 14th, 2015, 06:41 AM

I assume the Ursa Mini will interest film makers, mainly. Correct me if I'm wrong but the resolution of 35mm film is slightly above 3K, correct? I'm not even sure film has 15 stops of DN, does it?

So basically I'm not sure why anybody would go with the 4.6 sensor instead of the 4k, which has plenty of DR, allows 4:4:4 in ProRes. More rez, is that it? So there will be people what will keep upgrading to get more rez? When you reach a certain limit, where do you stop? How more rez does translate into perceived sensation by a non informed audience, as long as you have 4 K since we've been conditioned to 4 K by film, a little less actually? I'm trying to see what justifies to go from 3000 bucks to 5000 just to have more rez and a slightly bigger sensor. One could buy a nice lens for the difference.

Brian Drysdale · June 14th, 2015, 07:13 AM

I suspect factors like the black sun may come in with the 4k sensor. You really need to look at the images rather than the numbers, such as how they handle skin tones and how clippy the highlights are. This 4.6k sensor is both global and rolling shutter, the 15 stops seems to refer to the latter, with I gather 13.5 for the global.

Film seems to accepted to be around the 14 stop mark, perhaps a tad more..

The worth of any cost difference may depend may depend on how much you push your camera into the limits when creating your images.

Gary Huff · June 14th, 2015, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Secrest

Correct me if I'm wrong but the resolution of 35mm film is slightly above 3K, correct?

Quality film stock can resolve the equivalent of 6-8K worth of detail.

Quote:

I'm not even sure film has 15 stops of DN, does it?

Film has a practical DR of about 10 stops, but it doesn't hard clip. Instead, it has a soft rolloff. Have an additional 5 stops of DR allows you to emulate that rolloff look when you conform it to Rec.709.

Quote:

So basically I'm not sure why anybody would go with the 4.6 sensor instead of the 4k

Because it is rolling/global shutter switchable, better quality at higher ISOs/underexposure, and the extra .6K will help for anyone interested in mastering at 4K for things like warp stabilizing.

Quote:

When you reach a certain limit, where do you stop?

There is no end.

Quote:

I'm trying to see what justifies to go from 3000 bucks to 5000 just to have more rez and a slightly bigger sensor. One could buy a nice lens for the difference.

Because the sensor is supposedly better all-around. If I was getting an Ursa, I wouldn't even consider the 4K sensor because I'm a little underwhelmed by it. Very interested to see the visual difference (especially at 1600 ISO) with the 4.6K.

Rakesh Malik · June 14th, 2015, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

Because the sensor is supposedly better all-around. If I was getting an Ursa, I wouldn't even consider the 4K sensor because I'm a little underwhelmed by it. Very interested to see the visual difference (especially at 1600 ISO) with the 4.6K.

It's going to be interesting to see how they differ, because I suspect that quite a few people will end up getting the 4K model instead of the 4.6K model due to the price difference. The main advantage IMO is the dynamic range, since in the Ursa Mini the global shutter is limited to 30fps anyway.

I think BMD has addressed the black sun issue in the v2 4K sensor, btw as well as having addressed the FPN issue, and raised the frame rate. They're also including a feature that will make fixing the black sun issue in post a lot easier in Resolve 12, though it wasn't quite working in time to see it in action at NAB.

Brian Drysdale · June 14th, 2015, 10:09 AM

Fixing black sun in post sounds like a work around.

Larry Secrest · June 14th, 2015, 02:32 PM

Ok, I had no idea how bad that 4 K sensor was!

Rakesh Malik · June 14th, 2015, 07:29 PM

Read Marco Solorio's article about the Ursa.

Larry Secrest · June 15th, 2015, 07:20 PM

Thanks, I've just finished reading it and from what I've read I feel that there is no real reason to go for the 4.6K instead of the 4K.
That was basically a very good review and no mention at all of any sensor problem. The biggest problems he mentioned was not being able to delete clips in cam. So frankly, for anybody who is not going to have a contract to distribute in a big theater, I think the extra $ 2000 saved going with the 4K are nice. Well, I guess we'll see when a lot of footage from the 4.6K surfaces.

Rakesh Malik · June 15th, 2015, 08:20 PM

There are certainly benefits to having the extra dynamic range, but honestly I suspect that most people who are obsessed with the vast dynamic range are just using it to enable sloppier work. It gives you a lot of flexibility to screw up the exposure and still get a usable shot. With the 4K sensor you'll have less dynamic range, so you'll have to be a little more careful with exposure, but it's still going to enable a skilled cinematographer to get great images.

Plus, there's a very good chance that you'll be able to get a 4K model months before BMD catches up on 4.6K preorders. ;)

June 14th, 2015, 06:41 AM	#82
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini I assume the Ursa Mini will interest film makers, mainly. Correct me if I'm wrong but the resolution of 35mm film is slightly above 3K, correct? I'm not even sure film has 15 stops of DN, does it? So basically I'm not sure why anybody would go with the 4.6 sensor instead of the 4k, which has plenty of DR, allows 4:4:4 in ProRes. More rez, is that it? So there will be people what will keep upgrading to get more rez? When you reach a certain limit, where do you stop? How more rez does translate into perceived sensation by a non informed audience, as long as you have 4 K since we've been conditioned to 4 K by film, a little less actually? I'm trying to see what justifies to go from 3000 bucks to 5000 just to have more rez and a slightly bigger sensor. One could buy a nice lens for the difference.

June 14th, 2015, 07:13 AM	#83
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini I suspect factors like the black sun may come in with the 4k sensor. You really need to look at the images rather than the numbers, such as how they handle skin tones and how clippy the highlights are. This 4.6k sensor is both global and rolling shutter, the 15 stops seems to refer to the latter, with I gather 13.5 for the global. Film seems to accepted to be around the 14 stop mark, perhaps a tad more.. The worth of any cost difference may depend may depend on how much you push your camera into the limits when creating your images.

June 14th, 2015, 10:09 AM	#86
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini Fixing black sun in post sounds like a work around.

June 14th, 2015, 02:32 PM	#87
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini Ok, I had no idea how bad that 4 K sensor was!

June 14th, 2015, 07:29 PM	#88
Rakesh Malik Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 70	Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini Read Marco Solorio's article about the Ursa.

June 15th, 2015, 07:20 PM	#89
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini Thanks, I've just finished reading it and from what I've read I feel that there is no real reason to go for the 4.6K instead of the 4K. That was basically a very good review and no mention at all of any sensor problem. The biggest problems he mentioned was not being able to delete clips in cam. So frankly, for anybody who is not going to have a contract to distribute in a big theater, I think the extra $ 2000 saved going with the 4K are nice. Well, I guess we'll see when a lot of footage from the 4.6K surfaces.

June 15th, 2015, 08:20 PM	#90
Rakesh Malik Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 70	Re: BlackMagic - URSA Mini There are certainly benefits to having the extra dynamic range, but honestly I suspect that most people who are obsessed with the vast dynamic range are just using it to enable sloppier work. It gives you a lot of flexibility to screw up the exposure and still get a usable shot. With the 4K sensor you'll have less dynamic range, so you'll have to be a little more careful with exposure, but it's still going to enable a skilled cinematographer to get great images. Plus, there's a very good chance that you'll be able to get a 4K model months before BMD catches up on 4.6K preorders. ;)