New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

[Craig Seeman]

I don't want to go off topic but since some of us are talking about the viability of 4K in the Home entertainment market I thought this might factor in one's thinking about camera purchase.

http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/628-you-can-now-buy-a-50-4k-tv-for-$1299

And the 4K $1299 monitor at Tiger Direct. Who knows what the quality is or whether it's just "spec bait."
Seiki 50 Class 2160p 120Hz LED HDTV - 3840 x 2160, 16:9, 120Hz, 5000:1 Native, 6.5ms, 3x HDMI, VGA (SE50UY04) at TigerDirect.com

[Duane Adam]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

Duane.....I think you are focusing on the 1080 vs RAW thing...and it is soo much more than that. #1 would be functionality....the C300 is ready to go out of the box (add a card and a lens). The battery that comes with runs 3-4 hours, the cards record much more time, the camera sees in the dark (you'll need 1/4 of the lights you'd normally use), NDs are built in, function buttons abound, XLRs built in, and in post, the codec is basically the equivalent to PRoRes422 and flies into Premier, Final Cut, and even AVID. You will save time & money shooting with this camera and is why the camera is the hottest rental camera in town for over 1 year....and the rental price is holding (it usually drops after 6 months).
On the BM, it is not a functioning camera out of the box...you have to add 1) an audio recording system 2) a battery system 3) a higher level monitor 4) some sort of cage to have #s1, 2, & 3 mounted with the camera, and more...
Now, in comparing the "picture taker" in each camera, the Canon chip is far superior....super 35 sized (vs basically a 16mm size), much better low light(best of all cameras) and very little "grain" at the higher ISOs (noise comes up much faster on BM)......
Also, there is no delivery problem with the Canons while it is still an issue with BM.....
When buying a camera, its most important to get the one that fits your needs. RAW is much like 4K in that it sounds nice, nice to have the option, but does one really need it for the jobs one is working or being hired for.....and do you have lots of time and money because that's what you'll need in post in dealing with either one.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

I went back and re-read your post to see if I'm missing something. Did you really mean to say there is no audio system or battery in the BMPC? And that it must have external monitors and cages before it can be used? I understand you sell Canons but most here know those aren't accurate statements. BTW, the only difference between XLR and a 1/4" TRS balanced cables are the plugs, otherwise they're identical.

[Dylan Couper]

Disclaimer: I own this camera, so my opinion comes from first hand, in field production use.

Simon
Don't mean to jump on you but there is a flaw in your logic... it doesn't matter that they've only been making cameras for 1 year because there are decades of camera building r&d to draw upon. It's like they built a camera without ever having used one. It's one of the most poorly designed cameras I've ever held.

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

And exactly how did you feel $3000.00 was going to give you the perfect cinema camera? I think too many have become insanely spoiled and entitled about what they should get in a camera for a couple of bucks. Even RED has its faults and a decent size list of them.

Thomas, first, I don't care about the perfect camera, no such thing exists.

Next, implying that I'm naive, spoiled and entitled, is, well... naive. I'm non-partisan, anti-fanboy and unlike most don't give my opinion on something unless I actually own it.

Also, I don't care about the price. $3000... $5000... $15,000... if a camera is poorly designed, it's poorly designed. The places this camera fails are all simple and cheap to fix. Would they add to the price? Sure, a few bucks. But personally I'd rather pay $500 more for a camera that is a lot more functional.

Let me put it this way...
Someone built a Ferrari for $15,000... but they put the gas pedal in front of the passenger and the shifter in the back seat.

[John Richard]

"Let me put it this way...
Someone built a Ferrari for $15,000... but they put the gas pedal in front of the passenger and the shifter in the back seat."

That analogy in reference to the BMCC is nonsense.

If you don't like the form factor, that's fine - a matter of personal taste. But to intimate that the BMCC is not a functional piece of equipment is ridiculous. It is very capable of making gorgeous pictures. I have personally used this camera for a couple of months now and find it one of the better cameras I have used because:

1. It can be rigged out with cage, matte box, rails, follow focus, pre-amp, v-lock or Anton-Bauer batteries to make for a very capable tripod rig that makes some awesome footage

2. Or you can leave it stripped down to capture some really nice footage from locations where almost no one asks to see your permit and subjects don't get the jitters being shot by a Red or Alexa rig.

It is clear Dylan, that you don't like the camera and that is fine. But to lead folks into thinking the camera is not functional with that analogy is just not accurate. It IS a very fine tool that records 13 stops of latitude, 12 bit raw as well as ProRes and DNx, all in an inboard recorder that uses many off the shelf SSD drives. Very revolutionary.

[Mike Calla]

Speaking to a distributor who just came back from miptv, she had a few conversations regarding 4k. Just chatting but she mentioned on their end, a producer who has a 4k master may in fact increase the years of sales generated by two to three times.

If you're producing for TV, a 4k camera at 4k$ might make financial sense.

[Jim Giberti]

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

I think that C100 and BMCC 4K can definitely be compared in terms of price (once you kit out the BMCC to match the features in the C100). It mostly seems to come down to two things:
(a) Do you feel you have a genuine need to shoot 4K?
(b) Are you prepared to invest the extra time (and therefore money, if you are charging for your time) into the post workflow with a BMCC? Remember, with a camera like a C100, you can set your look beforehand with a picture profile, then expose it correctly and shoot it. This tends to minimize any post time needed for grading.
.

I think this is a very reasonable point.
My $.02 - it all comes down to what you do with your cameras.

If, as seems to be the case with many (most?) of the original BMC buyers, you're all about indie film making with a future hope for return, then rigging and utilizing the plusses of the BMC make sense 2.5 or 4k.

If you're out in the field producing billable projects everyday or every week then it's a different set of considerations. For instance we were so disappointed in the AVCHD and lack of 60p on the C100 that we nixed it and bought a pair of GH3s to add 60p.
But now that the price is $5500 and we have the slow motion - the C-100 looks a lot more attractive because of it's ability to get such a great in camera look.
We've just signed two deals that will have us in the field shooting 14 promotional films in all kinds of outdoor conditions over the next 7 months, in addition to a few TV campaigns.
As a small company, the first thing I thought was "there's no way I can spend the time CCing all of this work for delivery the way I have the last several projects."

Suddenly, getting a great in camera look and having a super fast, efficient post work flow has huge advantages...maybe even critical ones for pulling it all off.
Despite my frustration with what I see as intentional crippling of their technology, Canon delivers a very solid in-camera look with the C line and very functional camera systems that also make a big difference producing dozens of hours of footage on deadline.

My assessment is this.
The C camera runs circles around the BMC in terms of design, ergonomics and fast production and probably equals the IQ as far as current 1080 deliverables. And delivers right out of the box for editing if you like.

The BMC is great if you want/need to spend a good deal of time in post, have time for the extra workflow issues and are working more on set or with more controlled circumstances. It delivers a beautiful image but it's a pretty basic production tool.

The Canon C camera is a highly evolved, highly efficient production tool that provides a great image.

The 8 bit vs Raw comparison only matters if you want/need to do a lot in post, and even though I've spent more time doing so, I often miss "just shooting the damn thing" and moving on to the next project.

[Bob Willis]

Where did you see that the C100 has the ability to shoot 60fps or slow motion?

[Craig Seeman]

I'd add the following unusual observation.
Looking at both the B&H and Adorama sites the Canon C100, C300, C500 are all listed specifically as "Non Returnable." I find that an unusual policy. Given it's specific to these cameras and not other Canon cameras (or other cameras generally) something must be a foot. This can also enter into someone's purchasing decision. It's not clear why this is happening but it's certainly a consideration when one has to consider ROI on their camera purchase.

[Jim Giberti]

Originally Posted by Bob Willis

Where did you see that the C100 has the ability to shoot 60fps or slow motion?

I'm not sure if you're asking me that, but the C100 has neither ability.

[Troy Moss]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I'd add the following unusual observation.
Looking at both the B&H and Adorama sites the Canon C100, C300, C500 are all listed specifically as "Non Returnable." I find that an unusual policy. Given it's specific to these cameras and not other Canon cameras (or other cameras generally) something must be a foot. This can also enter into someone's purchasing decision. It's not clear why this is happening but it's certainly a consideration when one has to consider ROI on their camera purchase.

Craig, the C300 is the "Number One" Rented Camera! So B&H doesn't want you to purchase for your project, shoot 5-7 days of footage and then return the camera.

[Bob Willis]

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

I'm not sure if you're asking me that, but the C100 has neither ability.

I know, that's why I ask.

"But now that the price is $5500 and we have the slow motion - the C-100 looks a lot more attractive because of it's ability to get such a great in camera look."

[Philip Lipetz]

The GH cams give the slo mo so they can concentrate of pic quality with the C100s. We have used Hero 3 Blacks in narrow mode to get slo mo and time lapse to complement out team's C100 footage.

[Thomas Smet]

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

Disclaimer: I own this camera, so my opinion comes from first hand, in field production use.

Simon
Don't mean to jump on you but there is a flaw in your logic... it doesn't matter that they've only been making cameras for 1 year because there are decades of camera building r&d to draw upon. It's like they built a camera without ever having used one. It's one of the most poorly designed cameras I've ever held.



Thomas, first, I don't care about the perfect camera, no such thing exists.

Next, implying that I'm naive, spoiled and entitled, is, well... naive. I'm non-partisan, anti-fanboy and unlike most don't give my opinion on something unless I actually own it.

Also, I don't care about the price. $3000... $5000... $15,000... if a camera is poorly designed, it's poorly designed. The places this camera fails are all simple and cheap to fix. Would they add to the price? Sure, a few bucks. But personally I'd rather pay $500 more for a camera that is a lot more functional.

Let me put it this way...
Someone built a Ferrari for $15,000... but they put the gas pedal in front of the passenger and the shifter in the back seat.

I was saying we are all a little spoiled when it comes to cameras today, myself included. There are plenty of people who don't consider the camera poorly designed. Maybe it is for you but for others it is not.

[Duane Adam]

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

Let me put it this way...
Someone built a Ferrari for $15,000... but they put the gas pedal in front of the passenger and the shifter in the back seat.

If I could get a new Ferrari for $15k, even if the gas pedal was in the trunk, I'd have already ordered at least two. So in some ways that is a good analogy for the BMPC.

[Jim Giberti]

Originally Posted by Bob Willis

I know, that's why I ask.

"But now that the price is $5500 and we have the slow motion - the C-100 looks a lot more attractive because of it's ability to get such a great in camera look."

You have to read the whole post Bob <g>. I say how we bought a pair of GH3s for 60p and now that we have slow motion.... I actually mean "we" when I say we...not the royal we.