Canon 2012 NAB teaser

Emmanuel Plakiotis · March 14th, 2012, 01:12 AM

My guess if is not just a screening:
4k with Raw

Jim Martin · March 15th, 2012, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Brown

My vote is it's the C100 (or whatever they call it). A less-featured sibling of the C300. Same sensor and ergonomics. No SDI/genlock. No vectorscope. H.264 codec and i-frame options of the 5D3. No monitor/handle deal-ios. Either no XLR or fewer options on the sound side.

Soo... whoever is closest, and called it first, GETS whatever IS announced on tax day. Riiiight??? ;-) We should start a pool!

It would not be H.264/mpeg 4 codec....It would be the same codec as the C300

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Allan Black · March 16th, 2012, 12:21 AM

When the Canon 5Ds video first appeared the most surprised group of people was the Canon video camera folk.

They probably couldn't believe it and I'd say they complained bitterly to the Head Honcho.

Imo it's been shown they work in separate vacuums from each other and it's all to do with trickle down technology in each others field.

HH wanted to them to share one large Canteen but it goes way back to the Ninjas.

Cheers.

Glen Vandermolen · March 16th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

It would not be H.264/mpeg 4 codec....It would be the same codec as the C300

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

If a DSLR comes with the Canon XF code, that's a major win. It's a true broadcast 50mbps, 4:2:2 codec. I'd be all over that. I have an FS100, and it's a great camera, but the AVCHD codec is a bit lacking.

Robert Sanders · March 16th, 2012, 12:20 PM

Haven't we learned from RED that it's very difficult to do that much video processing and recording inside a housing as small as DSLR? And that the other caveat about crunching that much math and moving that many pixels around creates a LOT of heat?

Not sure if a 4K 50mb/s codec DSLR is even technically feasible outside a test-bench.

Tim Polster · March 16th, 2012, 01:46 PM

Good point and which shows that in my mind, we are not ready for 4k on a large scale.

Looking back at the dawn of the HD era, there was a flood of under resolved and overly compressed products that were released just to say they were HD and for sale. Now that it is shown that true HD with lower levels of compression looks just great even for cinema.

At this point I see 4k as pure marketing and it would be shame for Canon to release a 4k DSLR when they jury is still out on the HD versions.

David Heath · March 16th, 2012, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

........it's very difficult to do that much video processing and recording inside a housing as small as DSLR? And that the other caveat about crunching that much math and moving that many pixels around creates a LOT of heat?

I think that's true, but a way round it would be to record RAW. In which case much of the processing etc can be removed from camera to computer and become a post operation.

Quote:

Not sure if a 4K 50mb/s codec DSLR is even technically feasible outside a test-bench.

I don't think there's any question of a 4k 50Mbs codec is there?

The 50Mbs codec works very well for processed 1080, but it's a 1080 codec, period. Any 4k recording would need something totally different.

A camera with 4k RAW and 1080p 50Mbs would (IMO) be a very good balance. Use the 50Mbs codec for broadcast work which has a relatively quick turn around time, and 4k RAW for most post control and when there's time and resources to do it.

It should be possible to do both satisfactorily with the C300 chip - but is this a DSLR? "DSLR" implies a camera optimised for stills, and the 8 megapixel chip is low for high quality stills.

Sareesh Sudhakaran · March 16th, 2012, 09:32 PM

4K can be compressed to 50 Mbps - it can be compressed to 0.5 Mbps if you want it to happen. Nothing in the compression specs forbid it.

The interesting thing is that the 50Mbps 4:2:2 Interframe specification was adopted by broadcasters for 1080/720 video (defined by SMPTE) only, as David mentioned. To get roughly the same 'quality' at 4K, one would need approximately 200-250Mbps - but then again those deciding the specs will also have to look at the current broadcast pipeline, technologies and bandwidth available, not to mention that 4K on home screens are a wasted effort (at present) at regular viewing distances and light levels.

The DCI lower limit for compression, for 2K and 4K, are exactly the same. I find that ludicrous.

Emmanuel Plakiotis · March 17th, 2012, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Heath

A camera with 4k RAW and 1080p 50Mbs would (IMO) be a very good balance. Use the 50Mbs codec for broadcast work which has a relatively quick turn around time, and 4k RAW for most post control and when there's time and resources to do it.

Although I also find your proposition very well balanced, 1080p 50Mbits still needs a lot processing so it is unlike that it would be implemented in a DSLR factor.

If it is a DSLR it possible that will derive 4K from 30Mpxls and at the same time be a full fledged still DSLR. Canon needs to address Nikon's D800 sooner or later. So if its not at NAB, it must be within a year.

If I try to summarize most opinions, it will either be a C100 1080p 50Mbits, resembling C300, but with less feature and (hopefully) more reasonably priced or a 4K Raw DSLR with a price TBA
I would say 60%-40% it will be a 4K DSLR.

Sean Seah · March 20th, 2012, 06:49 PM

It should be a 4K DSLR for B cam applications in DSLR form factor. Great for rigging shots. Price is definately going to be $10k in my guess

David Heath · March 22nd, 2012, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmanuel Plakiotis

Although I also find your proposition very well balanced, 1080p 50Mbits still needs a lot processing so it is unlike that it would be implemented in a DSLR factor.

I'm not sure that's true about the processing - I'd have thought H264 is more processor intensive than MPEG2? Most of the effort goes into processing the effort off the chip.

But I wasn't really thinking of a DSLR anyway when I referred to a "camera with 4k RAW and 1080p 50Mbs" - rather a big brother to the C300.

Quote:

If it is a DSLR it possible that will derive 4K from 30Mpxls and at the same time be a full fledged still DSLR. Canon needs to address Nikon's D800 sooner or later. So if its not at NAB, it must be within a year.

And from elsewhere, the following:

More pixels are coming
A suggestion that a high megapixel camera is coming from Canon, and could be introduced near the end of 2012. Alongside the camera would come new ultra wide angle lens(es). It was suggested both a zoom and a prime in the area of 16mm.

I warn that this sort of conjecture will be a regular occurrence going forward I think. There is a large number of people in the community that desire a 35+ megapixel camera from Canon.

NAB 2012?
Some have suggested the upcoming 4K DSLR will be the high megapixel camera. I don’t believe that to be true, as the high megapixel count is definitely a request of the photographic community, and paying for high end video features is probably not something that would make the segment too happy.

Rumour and speculation, obviously, but it would make sense. PRIMARILY for stills, but if twice the 4k pixel count hor and vert it could be read relatively easily, (same method of 2x2 as used in the C300). And whilst the resolution may be "high end video",I doubt most of the other aspects could be described that way, when compared to the C300. "4k high end video" would imply high bit depth RAW - I don't see there being anything like that in any such product.

Quote:

If I try to summarize most opinions, it will either be a C100 1080p 50Mbits, resembling C300, but with less feature and (hopefully) more reasonably priced or a 4K Raw DSLR with a price TBA
I would say 60%-40% it will be a 4K DSLR.

Missing off that list is the "C500". A C300 but with 4k ability - but not something that can really be called a DSLR. Is NAB really the place to announce what is fundamentally a DSLR?

Sareesh Sudhakaran · March 22nd, 2012, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmanuel Plakiotis

Although I also find your proposition very well balanced, 1080p 50Mbits still needs a lot processing so it is unlike that it would be implemented in a DSLR factor.

But doesn't Canon's DSLRs already process 1080 at 44Mbps? 50Mbps isn't an issue, like the GH2 hacks show.

Jim Giberti · March 24th, 2012, 12:05 AM

I'll go back to my original opinion.
I think the hottest, most competitive camera they could produce would be a dedicated 1080 film making DSLR with the XF codec.

Only the smallest niche of users need or will need 4k. 1080 is and will be, for camera cycles to come, the standard for all but cinematic work.

But give it a 50 mbps 4:2:2 robust codec for grading and green screen, full use of the EF lens line, 35mm full frame field and depth of view and you could have a camera that would be to this market what the original 5DII was three years ago.

With the buttons dedicated to video oriented controls and a battery grip with XLR input and you've bridged the divide.

Andy Wilkinson · March 24th, 2012, 04:08 AM

That is exactly the camera I am hoping for and why I have not rushed out to buy a 5DMkIII. As to if we will get it I am currently rather cynical. After all, Canon might see it robbing sales from the C300.

However, if Canon don't fill this customer need soon the others surely will.

Glen Vandermolen · March 24th, 2012, 07:00 AM

So basically, what most of us want is a Canon XF105, but with a large sensor and an EF lens mount. Perhaps in a DSLR body, perhaps not. Methinks you could have a better layout of video-centric controls on an XF body design. All for under $10,000, hopefully a lot less.

The XF105, with its 8-bit, 4:2:2, 50mbps, broadcast quality codec, retails for $4,000. It's hard to believe that the C300, with the same codec, quadrupled in price compared to the XF105. Just how expensive is that large sensor and accompanying hardware? You'd think Canon could figure out a way to squeeze the EF mount and hardware into an XF105 body, maybe even an XF305, for less than $16,000. Sony managed to put a large sensor and an E-mount in the VG10/20, basically a consumer Handicam design. It's hamstrung with an AVCHD codec, but physically a large sensor can fit into a small camcorder.

Maybe that's why there's been such shell-shock over the C300 price.

March 14th, 2012, 01:12 AM	#61
Emmanuel Plakiotis Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 344	Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser My guess if is not just a screening: 4k with Raw

March 16th, 2012, 12:21 AM	#63
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,928	Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser When the Canon 5Ds video first appeared the most surprised group of people was the Canon video camera folk. They probably couldn't believe it and I'd say they complained bitterly to the Head Honcho. Imo it's been shown they work in separate vacuums from each other and it's all to do with trickle down technology in each others field. HH wanted to them to share one large Canteen but it goes way back to the Ninjas. Cheers. __________________ Drink more tap water. On admission at Sydney hospitals more than 5% of day patients are de-hydrated.

March 16th, 2012, 12:20 PM	#65
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser Haven't we learned from RED that it's very difficult to do that much video processing and recording inside a housing as small as DSLR? And that the other caveat about crunching that much math and moving that many pixels around creates a LOT of heat? Not sure if a 4K 50mb/s codec DSLR is even technically feasible outside a test-bench. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

March 16th, 2012, 01:46 PM	#66
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser Good point and which shows that in my mind, we are not ready for 4k on a large scale. Looking back at the dawn of the HD era, there was a flood of under resolved and overly compressed products that were released just to say they were HD and for sale. Now that it is shown that true HD with lower levels of compression looks just great even for cinema. At this point I see 4k as pure marketing and it would be shame for Canon to release a 4k DSLR when they jury is still out on the HD versions.

March 16th, 2012, 09:32 PM	#68
Sareesh Sudhakaran Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Mumbai, India Posts: 1,385	Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser 4K can be compressed to 50 Mbps - it can be compressed to 0.5 Mbps if you want it to happen. Nothing in the compression specs forbid it. The interesting thing is that the 50Mbps 4:2:2 Interframe specification was adopted by broadcasters for 1080/720 video (defined by SMPTE) only, as David mentioned. To get roughly the same 'quality' at 4K, one would need approximately 200-250Mbps - but then again those deciding the specs will also have to look at the current broadcast pipeline, technologies and bandwidth available, not to mention that 4K on home screens are a wasted effort (at present) at regular viewing distances and light levels. The DCI lower limit for compression, for 2K and 4K, are exactly the same. I find that ludicrous. __________________ Get the Free Comprehensive Guide to Rigging ANY Camera - one guide to rig them all - DSLRs to the Arri Alexa. Last edited by Sareesh Sudhakaran; March 16th, 2012 at 09:34 PM. Reason: typo

March 20th, 2012, 06:49 PM	#70
Sean Seah Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,498	Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser It should be a 4K DSLR for B cam applications in DSLR form factor. Great for rigging shots. Price is definately going to be $10k in my guess __________________ Firewerkz Films SGP

March 24th, 2012, 12:05 AM	#73
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser I'll go back to my original opinion. I think the hottest, most competitive camera they could produce would be a dedicated 1080 film making DSLR with the XF codec. Only the smallest niche of users need or will need 4k. 1080 is and will be, for camera cycles to come, the standard for all but cinematic work. But give it a 50 mbps 4:2:2 robust codec for grading and green screen, full use of the EF lens line, 35mm full frame field and depth of view and you could have a camera that would be to this market what the original 5DII was three years ago. With the buttons dedicated to video oriented controls and a battery grip with XLR input and you've bridged the divide.

March 24th, 2012, 04:08 AM	#74
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser That is exactly the camera I am hoping for and why I have not rushed out to buy a 5DMkIII. As to if we will get it I am currently rather cynical. After all, Canon might see it robbing sales from the C300. However, if Canon don't fill this customer need soon the others surely will. __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

March 24th, 2012, 07:00 AM	#75
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Re: Canon 2012 NAB teaser So basically, what most of us want is a Canon XF105, but with a large sensor and an EF lens mount. Perhaps in a DSLR body, perhaps not. Methinks you could have a better layout of video-centric controls on an XF body design. All for under $10,000, hopefully a lot less. The XF105, with its 8-bit, 4:2:2, 50mbps, broadcast quality codec, retails for $4,000. It's hard to believe that the C300, with the same codec, quadrupled in price compared to the XF105. Just how expensive is that large sensor and accompanying hardware? You'd think Canon could figure out a way to squeeze the EF mount and hardware into an XF105 body, maybe even an XF305, for less than $16,000. Sony managed to put a large sensor and an E-mount in the VG10/20, basically a consumer Handicam design. It's hamstrung with an AVCHD codec, but physically a large sensor can fit into a small camcorder. Maybe that's why there's been such shell-shock over the C300 price.