Looks official, Apple going with Intel

Boyd Ostroff · June 9th, 2005, 12:28 PM

Jeff, you have a great perspective on all this, nice post!

Fortune Magazine just put up an article on the switch which is very positive:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/fastf...070380,00.html

Quote:

In my column two weeks ago, I noted that Jobs would obviously prefer that his legacy be a company with significant market share rather than one with superb products that never broke into the big time.

K. Forman · June 9th, 2005, 12:45 PM

Sounds like another case of PC envy ;)

Boyd Ostroff · June 9th, 2005, 04:08 PM

From the June 9 Wall Street Journal:

http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20050609.html

Quote:

In the long term, the change will strengthen Apple and the Mac, which is good news for anyone devoted to that platform or considering switching to it.

............................

In the short run, however, the chip changeover should make little difference to average consumers. For all but the techiest techies, changing the processor in these machines will be a nonevent

Jeff Sayre · June 9th, 2005, 06:28 PM

[QUOTE=Boyd Ostroff]Jeff, you have a great perspective on all this, nice post!

Thanks, Boyd.

***
Here are two interesting articles on the switch that give additional insight:

http://arstechnica.com/columns/mac/mac-20050607.ars

http://arstechnica.com/columns/mac/mac-20050608.ars

Dan Euritt · June 9th, 2005, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Sayre

I was a partner of a 120-person firm with offices in 5 states ...Now, my wife and I have four Apple systems in our small business.

the problem here, jeff, is that you don't have any experience supporting 120+ macs... trust me when i tell you that it's nothing like your little 4-mac network at home.

i was part of a 4-man crew that supported both macs and pc's at cal state san marcos back in the late '90's... i can tell you that there are many good reasons why macs have zero market penetration in the business environment these days.

of course it didn't help that steve jobs came along and stopped apple from licensing it's operating system... which screwed several apple business partners out of a bunch of money, and forever condemned apple to be a bit player in the desktop computing market... hardly the work of a genius, the hugely successful microsoft business model of licensing the o.s. was there for everyone to see... steve jobs blew it in a big way.

this trend of using pc parts in macs is nothing new, btw... apple has a long history of bastard proprietary hardware that they had to abandon for the much cheaper pc stuff... wasn't there an apple interface called nubus, for instance?

now apple will put a unix g.u.i. on pc chips... but hasn't this already been done before? maybe not... all i know is that it won't increase the number of software apps being written for the mac platform, so the business community won't care... and neither will i.

the only thing that you really have to remember is that "software sells hardware."

Ken Tanaka · June 10th, 2005, 12:53 AM

Dan,
My, you seem rather negative on Apple! <g>

We're veering off-topic a bit...but I must remark that Apple and the Mac OS have undergone tectonic changes since the late 1990's. Your experience with Mac OS 9, or earlier, and with circa 1990's Apple hardware is --sorry to day-- ancient history. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised that you're a dinosaur.

Managing IT in an academic environment, as you did, will always be a challenge akin to herding cats. Having retired from heading IT in a major international institutional investment firm I'd have to say that I would strongly consider deploying Macs at various points in the chain if I were starting over today. It's an extremely robust platform for both client and server, much more so than Windows.

Also, in my opinion, regressing from licensing 3rd party hardware was one of the smartest moves that Apple ever made. Yes, there was a handful of companies that were temporarily nicked in the process. But it basically saved the company; there would be no Apple today if they did not make that maneuver.

Radek Svoboda · June 10th, 2005, 07:26 AM

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050609.html

What's behind Apple's switch to Intel?

George Ellis · June 10th, 2005, 08:05 AM

Won't happen. The flaw in all of this is that Apple is not working so that OSX will run on Intel platforms, just an Intel chip designed for Apple. Even Michael Robertson is disappointed with this decision (Linspire's leader - formerly known as Lindows). Intel buying Apple will just delay any general solution. A chip mfgr buying a major OS may meet with DOJ delays too. AMD will have something to say about it.

Another flaw is that Intel is now playing catch-up with AMD. AMD's X2 chips outperform the Intel chips, again. The X2 also beats Xeon pairs at the top end of the workstation space, including cost. The Opteron dual cores may expand the mark.

Dan Euritt · June 10th, 2005, 12:13 PM

nice post ken! at least we can agree that apple finally did the smart thing by switching over to pc-based hardware... i think that we'd also agree that it was incredibly foolish of them to have not used standard pc hardware from the beginning, but that's another discussion <vbg>

and of course i don't expect mac people to understand the bill gates business model of licensing the o.s... that lack of business acumen is exactly why apple has an insignificant share of the desktop market today, and it's why nobody in the modern business world is using mac's.

take a trip back in time: http://www.chron.com/content/chronic...power.2-0.html

so the lessons that i learned as a dinosaur have been fully embraced in the modern world, lol... and they were also re-enforced when i was the network admin at m/a com and commquest, where i spent about half a million $$ spec'ing out computer hardware and telephone systems... those companies were all sprung from the same group of engineers who started a little company called qualcomm.

i think that apple has cleverly re-invented itself as a toy company... they have a cute little audio player, some online music that's not really a money maker, and they've come out with a cute little computer box that your kids can take to college... but none of that is relevant to serious video editing or business computing in general.

Duane Smith · June 10th, 2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Euritt

i think that we'd also agree that it was incredibly foolish of them to have not used standard pc hardware from the beginning, but that's another discussion <vbg>

Of course, it should be pointed out that Apple computers pre-date the "standard" PC hardware by several years. ;-)

Dan Euritt · June 10th, 2005, 12:42 PM

from the link that radek posted: "If Intel was able to own the Mac OS and make it available to all the OEMs, it could break the back of Microsoft."

see how it always comes back around to licensing the o.s.? i'd sure like to see that happen! i hate microsoft because of it's software licensing agreements.

unfortunately it's the only game in town for software developers who want market share for their products, so it's the only choice for computer users who don't want to be severely limited in their software choices... a classic example of that is the abysmal lack of decent mpeg2 and wmv encoding software on the mac side of the fence.

Dan Euritt · June 10th, 2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duane Smith

Of course, it should be pointed out that Apple computers pre-date the "standard" PC hardware by several years. ;-)

speaking from the dinosaur perspective :-)

back in the mid-'80's, none of the engineers i worked with wanted macs because they had a dinky little 9-inch screen, while the dos-based pc's had 12-inch screens.

the little macs also kept burning up flyback transformers because they overheated so badly... of course i had a couple of professional electronics purchasers at my disposal to source repair parts, but they were unable to come up with anything... it took me many days to find the parts, which was the beginning of my hatred for the poorly-designed apple hardware.

Duane Smith · June 10th, 2005, 01:29 PM

Wow...that's going back a ways. I completely forgot about those problems. LOL! Yes, if I recall correctly, you had to use a bleeder resistor to discharge the flyback transformers before you replaced them (or the faulty capicators, another common associated problem) or else you could actually be KILLED!!! The later all-in-one units (SE/30 and newer?) included a built-in bleeder resistor. Usually. ;-)

It's hard to disput that those original Macs were--ahem--"lacking" in many ways. The GUI made them a one-trick-pony really, but beyond that the PC was a superior machine in most ways. And to be completely honest, the Atart ST and the Amiga machines were really better computers in many ways than Macs of the same time period.

But they sure were cute. ;-)

Radek Svoboda · June 10th, 2005, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Euritt

i hate microsoft

I hate it more.

Radek

Joe Carney · June 10th, 2005, 02:50 PM

Maybe at least Apple will start using PCI Express instead of the dead end PCI-X interface. Too bad they didn't go with AMD, would have been a cool fit. Dual Opteron dual cores kicking the crud out of Intel. Maverick with Maverick.
I guess Steve Jobs is getting 'safe' in his old age.

I may actually buy one once they cross over. I've heard BSD is a pretty stable and secure OS. (Yes campers, Mac OS is based on BSD, not Unix or Linux).

June 9th, 2005, 12:45 PM	#32
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Sounds like another case of PC envy ;) __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

June 9th, 2005, 06:28 PM	#34
Jeff Sayre Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: South Bend, IN Posts: 301	[QUOTE=Boyd Ostroff]Jeff, you have a great perspective on all this, nice post! Thanks, Boyd. *** Here are two interesting articles on the switch that give additional insight: http://arstechnica.com/columns/mac/mac-20050607.ars http://arstechnica.com/columns/mac/mac-20050608.ars Last edited by Jeff Sayre; June 10th, 2005 at 06:56 AM. Reason: Add an additional article link

June 10th, 2005, 12:53 AM	#36
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Dan, My, you seem rather negative on Apple! <g> We're veering off-topic a bit...but I must remark that Apple and the Mac OS have undergone tectonic changes since the late 1990's. Your experience with Mac OS 9, or earlier, and with circa 1990's Apple hardware is --sorry to day-- ancient history. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised that you're a dinosaur. Managing IT in an academic environment, as you did, will always be a challenge akin to herding cats. Having retired from heading IT in a major international institutional investment firm I'd have to say that I would strongly consider deploying Macs at various points in the chain if I were starting over today. It's an extremely robust platform for both client and server, much more so than Windows. Also, in my opinion, regressing from licensing 3rd party hardware was one of the smartest moves that Apple ever made. Yes, there was a handful of companies that were temporarily nicked in the process. But it basically saved the company; there would be no Apple today if they did not make that maneuver. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

June 10th, 2005, 07:26 AM	#37
Radek Svoboda Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Prague, Czech Republic Posts: 500	Intel/Apple/Sony/Pixtar/Disney to put Micro$oft where it belongs: out of my computer! http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050609.html What's behind Apple's switch to Intel?

June 10th, 2005, 08:05 AM	#38
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	Won't happen. The flaw in all of this is that Apple is not working so that OSX will run on Intel platforms, just an Intel chip designed for Apple. Even Michael Robertson is disappointed with this decision (Linspire's leader - formerly known as Lindows). Intel buying Apple will just delay any general solution. A chip mfgr buying a major OS may meet with DOJ delays too. AMD will have something to say about it. Another flaw is that Intel is now playing catch-up with AMD. AMD's X2 chips outperform the Intel chips, again. The X2 also beats Xeon pairs at the top end of the workstation space, including cost. The Opteron dual cores may expand the mark.

June 10th, 2005, 12:13 PM	#39
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	nice post ken! at least we can agree that apple finally did the smart thing by switching over to pc-based hardware... i think that we'd also agree that it was incredibly foolish of them to have not used standard pc hardware from the beginning, but that's another discussion <vbg> and of course i don't expect mac people to understand the bill gates business model of licensing the o.s... that lack of business acumen is exactly why apple has an insignificant share of the desktop market today, and it's why nobody in the modern business world is using mac's. take a trip back in time: http://www.chron.com/content/chronic...power.2-0.html so the lessons that i learned as a dinosaur have been fully embraced in the modern world, lol... and they were also re-enforced when i was the network admin at m/a com and commquest, where i spent about half a million $$ spec'ing out computer hardware and telephone systems... those companies were all sprung from the same group of engineers who started a little company called qualcomm. i think that apple has cleverly re-invented itself as a toy company... they have a cute little audio player, some online music that's not really a money maker, and they've come out with a cute little computer box that your kids can take to college... but none of that is relevant to serious video editing or business computing in general.

June 10th, 2005, 12:42 PM	#41
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	from the link that radek posted: "If Intel was able to own the Mac OS and make it available to all the OEMs, it could break the back of Microsoft." see how it always comes back around to licensing the o.s.? i'd sure like to see that happen! i hate microsoft because of it's software licensing agreements. unfortunately it's the only game in town for software developers who want market share for their products, so it's the only choice for computer users who don't want to be severely limited in their software choices... a classic example of that is the abysmal lack of decent mpeg2 and wmv encoding software on the mac side of the fence.

June 10th, 2005, 01:29 PM	#43
Duane Smith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 234	Wow...that's going back a ways. I completely forgot about those problems. LOL! Yes, if I recall correctly, you had to use a bleeder resistor to discharge the flyback transformers before you replaced them (or the faulty capicators, another common associated problem) or else you could actually be KILLED!!! The later all-in-one units (SE/30 and newer?) included a built-in bleeder resistor. Usually. ;-) It's hard to disput that those original Macs were--ahem--"lacking" in many ways. The GUI made them a one-trick-pony really, but beyond that the PC was a superior machine in most ways. And to be completely honest, the Atart ST and the Amiga machines were really better computers in many ways than Macs of the same time period. But they sure were cute. ;-)

June 10th, 2005, 02:50 PM	#45
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Maybe at least Apple will start using PCI Express instead of the dead end PCI-X interface. Too bad they didn't go with AMD, would have been a cool fit. Dual Opteron dual cores kicking the crud out of Intel. Maverick with Maverick. I guess Steve Jobs is getting 'safe' in his old age. I may actually buy one once they cross over. I've heard BSD is a pretty stable and secure OS. (Yes campers, Mac OS is based on BSD, not Unix or Linux).