Next "HD" DVD format "war" has started

Harrison Murchison · December 9th, 2004, 08:35 PM

Hybrid players will be needed. I will not choose because I need content that is from studios in both camps. However I will wait until I can get a hybrid that will end the damn confusion. I bet there is some company working on this right now.

Hybrid is the way to go until the the studios decide who they like better.

I don't care about Sony's claim of 200GB. What's that have to do with viewing movies. It just means I'd have to shell out for a new player. I don't care about the difference between 30 and 50GB. The only time it makes sense is if you're comparing the same codec.

Robert Mann Z. · December 9th, 2004, 08:53 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Hayden Rivers :

Secondly, even if it wasn't backwards compatible, why the hell would anyone care? You can get a DVD player for like $40. Hell, they give them away for free if you sign up for a credit card these days. I've seen them sold for like $25-30 which is less expensive than some of my DVDs.
-->>>

I think your missing the point...if you buy a hd-dvd disk you won't have to get an hdvd player...most folks will not be buying hd-dvd players in the near future, most folks won't be buying blu ray players...

if you put out a disk on hd-dvd it can play in standard dvd machine (or so they say) and can play in a hd-dvd machine (of course)...

it's one thing to put out a movie an expect 100,000 folks to shell out $20 bucks to buy it,... its another thing to put out a movie and expect folks to shell out $20 bucks for movie and $200 for a player...

most americans are still trying to pay off there credit card bills after buying a computer, getting there kids braces, mortagage and host of other things, i don't think blu ray or hd-dvd will be on that list anytime soon, with hd cable and satalitte coming its going to be hard to justify a 'Sony Cost' for another player...

now if you tell me that blue ray players will retail for $40 bucks, thats another story....

Hayden Rivers · December 9th, 2004, 09:04 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Harrison Murchison : I don't care about the difference between 30 and 50GB. -->>>

What?! More space = better picture quality. How can anyone not care about better picture quality?

Glenn Gipson · December 9th, 2004, 09:30 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/biztech...eut/index.html

Rob Lohman · December 10th, 2004, 04:22 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Robert Mann Z. : I think your missing the point...if you buy a hd-dvd disk you won't have to get an hdvd player...most folks will not be buying hd-dvd players in the near future, most folks won't be buying blu ray players...

if you put out a disk on hd-dvd it can play in standard dvd machine (or so they say) and can play in a hd-dvd machine (of course)... -->>>

No, no no. What they are saying is that the HD-DVD camp has
two formats:

1. full HD-DVD (30 GB max)

2. HD-DVD / DVD **HYBRID** (15 GB HD-DVD + 4.7 GB DVD)

Do you see the problem? The DVD layer of this disc is *only* 4.7
GB instead of the usual 9.5 GB we get now. So quality WILL DROP!

Also the HD-DVD layer has only half the size of a full HD-DVD so
quality is probably worse on that as well.

No thank you. I'll wait for the market to decide where they are
going, get DVD's in the meantime or perhaps some clever release
from a studio where they have the movie in the package on both
a HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disc (since most likely the extras can fit on
this as well, it shouldn't be that much more expensive [in theory]).

And I agree Hayden: this new format war we are about to enter
sucks big time and we are the ones who are gonna pay for it!
Any HD-DVD player and Blu-Ray player will play DVD discs, so
compatability is not a good argument in my opinion as well.

It's all about which is the best format or at least get behind one
with all of the studios. Now it's split and that will be trouble!

The site www.thedigitalbits.com had a nice comparison:

Quote:

HD-DVD Supporting Studios - Warner Bros., New Line, Paramount, Universal, HBO

Likely HD-DVD Supporters - DreamWorks (because of its ties to Universal)

Blu-ray Disc Supporting Studios - Columbia TriStar/Sony Pictures, Buena Vista (Walt Disney, Hollywood, Touchstone, Miramax and Dimension)

Likely Blu-ray Disc Supporters - MGM (soon to be owned by Sony)

Officially Undecided - 20th Century Fox, Lions Gate, Image, Anchor Bay, Criterion and many smaller distributors

Discouraged yet? Yeah, so are we. We're going to have to seriously think about how we want to respond to all this.

Peter Moore · December 10th, 2004, 07:49 AM

"I still find it odd that although Blu-ray seems to be a "superior/
better" format most companies have chosen for HD-DVD."

Beta v. VHS.

Joshua Starnes · December 10th, 2004, 11:48 AM

50gb vs. 30gb. Yeah, one costs more. That's cause it's better.

That must be why I can rush out and rent Betamax tapes whenever I want.

"I still find it odd that although Blu-ray seems to be a "superior/
better" format most companies have chosen for HD-DVD."

HD-DVD content and discs will be a lot cheaper for studio't to intially produce than Blu-Ray, because they can use existing DVD production systems, whereas a Blu-Ray production system will have to be built from the ground up. Not that surprising, really.

Bill Ravens · December 10th, 2004, 12:04 PM

I find it rather amusing that people always decide what's better based on their own personal views without considering that other users have different needs. Ultimately, the winner isn't always the most logical choice from a technical standpoint. These things are driven by priorities based mostly on profit margin for the OEM. Sometimes fair market value wins out, but, not always.

Robert Mann Z. · December 10th, 2004, 12:15 PM

i guess my point of view is moot there Bill, ....but i will say that one big boost to blueray will be support by the playstions and if microsoft joins in the xboxs...

if current sales are any indications, at least here in the us those gaming devices are popular buggers and should boost popularity of this format...

as a developer though i could care less, if my client wants blue ray i ship blue ray, they hd-dvd i ship that...

Jesse Bekas · December 10th, 2004, 12:18 PM

VHS mostly won out because when the tapes were stupid expensive they had the most storage. People must stop comparing that format war to this.

There was no exisiting consumer architecture for cassette-tape video at that time. There has been a disc based video architecture in DVD, which is why HD-DVD has a strong advantage.

If back in the day there had already been a Beta format for a few years, and then people had a choice between VHS and Beta2, VHS would have bit the dust. It's all about best bang for the buck.

We're gonna get stuck with HD-DVD, and by the time media companies (not the public) deem that obsolete, we will all be moving on to flash-based (or holographic, if you believe that), solid state media.

Rob Lohman · December 15th, 2004, 07:03 AM

At least some players will support HD-DVD *AND* Blu-Ray (and
DVD, ofcourse)!!

" Blu-Ray or HD DVD? Both, Says Thomson "

Source: http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/Bl...son-38881.html

Christopher C. Murphy · December 15th, 2004, 08:06 AM

Rob, to me that's the bottom liine....all players support both formats.

It's silly to choose one if you're a content provider. The studios don't care about formats (minus the copyright issue)...they care about profits. If the players go on the market and support every format it's a win-win for everyone. The BluRay and HDDVD camps are facing a loser, but if they both get in the market it's going to at least be acceptable to the bottom line of their stock holders. To win the war seems like a good first move, but with multi-supported players coming it doesn't seem like there is war to win. You know what I mean?

Anyway, I'm for the high disc capcity and first one that offered recordable media. That's where we all need to focus...the recordable media is where we all will benefit here in video production land. :)

Murph

Bill Ravens · December 15th, 2004, 08:11 AM

seems to me that price point is a critical issue. If one format can burn any other format with a single laser head and the other competeing format needs two seperate laser heads, which one will cost more and which one will be more reliable?

Rob Lohman · December 29th, 2004, 10:19 AM

http://www.jvc.co.jp/english/press/2004/bd-dvd.html

Quote:

JVC Develops World's First* Blu-ray/ DVD Combo ROM Disc Technology, Enabling 33.5GB Storage Capacity

Interesting! They have the normal DVD layers (so you get the
full 8.5 GB which is GREAT NEWS!) and a single blu-ray layer.

This is far better than the previously mentioned hybrid form.

Heath McKnight · December 29th, 2004, 02:15 PM

Lucas talked about Blu-Ray back in 1999 or 2000 when word was he wouldn't go to DVD with any of the Star Wars until Blu-Ray came out. That wasn't long after DVDs were released (Q4 1997).

Personally, I'll just wait for whichever one is the standard, then I'll buy it. Right now, you can buy a DVD player that allows movies telecined to HD (before going to SD) to enchance those DVDs more, and another that up-rezzes to 720p or 1080i (or both) for HDTVs.

Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to make my anamorphic HDTV play my DVDs in native anamorphic! They're stretched out horizontally and it stinks!

heath

December 15th, 2004, 07:03 AM	#26
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	At least some players will support HD-DVD AND Blu-Ray (and DVD, ofcourse)!! " Blu-Ray or HD DVD? Both, Says Thomson " Source: http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/Bl...son-38881.html __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 15th, 2004, 08:06 AM	#27
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Interesting find...multi-support DVD players Rob, to me that's the bottom liine....all players support both formats. It's silly to choose one if you're a content provider. The studios don't care about formats (minus the copyright issue)...they care about profits. If the players go on the market and support every format it's a win-win for everyone. The BluRay and HDDVD camps are facing a loser, but if they both get in the market it's going to at least be acceptable to the bottom line of their stock holders. To win the war seems like a good first move, but with multi-supported players coming it doesn't seem like there is war to win. You know what I mean? Anyway, I'm for the high disc capcity and first one that offered recordable media. That's where we all need to focus...the recordable media is where we all will benefit here in video production land. :) Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

December 29th, 2004, 02:15 PM	#30
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Lucas talked about Blu-Ray back in 1999 or 2000 when word was he wouldn't go to DVD with any of the Star Wars until Blu-Ray came out. That wasn't long after DVDs were released (Q4 1997). Personally, I'll just wait for whichever one is the standard, then I'll buy it. Right now, you can buy a DVD player that allows movies telecined to HD (before going to SD) to enchance those DVDs more, and another that up-rezzes to 720p or 1080i (or both) for HDTVs. Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to make my anamorphic HDTV play my DVDs in native anamorphic! They're stretched out horizontally and it stinks! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

December 9th, 2004, 08:35 PM	#16
Harrison Murchison Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 243	Hybrid players will be needed. I will not choose because I need content that is from studios in both camps. However I will wait until I can get a hybrid that will end the damn confusion. I bet there is some company working on this right now. Hybrid is the way to go until the the studios decide who they like better. I don't care about Sony's claim of 200GB. What's that have to do with viewing movies. It just means I'd have to shell out for a new player. I don't care about the difference between 30 and 50GB. The only time it makes sense is if you're comparing the same codec.

December 9th, 2004, 08:53 PM	#17
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	<<<-- Originally posted by Hayden Rivers : Secondly, even if it wasn't backwards compatible, why the hell would anyone care? You can get a DVD player for like $40. Hell, they give them away for free if you sign up for a credit card these days. I've seen them sold for like $25-30 which is less expensive than some of my DVDs. -->>> I think your missing the point...if you buy a hd-dvd disk you won't have to get an hdvd player...most folks will not be buying hd-dvd players in the near future, most folks won't be buying blu ray players... if you put out a disk on hd-dvd it can play in standard dvd machine (or so they say) and can play in a hd-dvd machine (of course)... it's one thing to put out a movie an expect 100,000 folks to shell out $20 bucks to buy it,... its another thing to put out a movie and expect folks to shell out $20 bucks for movie and $200 for a player... most americans are still trying to pay off there credit card bills after buying a computer, getting there kids braces, mortagage and host of other things, i don't think blu ray or hd-dvd will be on that list anytime soon, with hd cable and satalitte coming its going to be hard to justify a 'Sony Cost' for another player... now if you tell me that blue ray players will retail for $40 bucks, thats another story....

December 9th, 2004, 09:04 PM	#18
Hayden Rivers Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 53	<<<-- Originally posted by Harrison Murchison : I don't care about the difference between 30 and 50GB. -->>> What?! More space = better picture quality. How can anyone not care about better picture quality?

December 9th, 2004, 09:30 PM	#19
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/biztech...eut/index.html

December 10th, 2004, 07:49 AM	#21
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	"I still find it odd that although Blu-ray seems to be a "superior/ better" format most companies have chosen for HD-DVD." Beta v. VHS.

December 10th, 2004, 11:48 AM	#22
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	50gb vs. 30gb. Yeah, one costs more. That's cause it's better. That must be why I can rush out and rent Betamax tapes whenever I want. "I still find it odd that although Blu-ray seems to be a "superior/ better" format most companies have chosen for HD-DVD." HD-DVD content and discs will be a lot cheaper for studio't to intially produce than Blu-Ray, because they can use existing DVD production systems, whereas a Blu-Ray production system will have to be built from the ground up. Not that surprising, really.

December 10th, 2004, 12:04 PM	#23
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I find it rather amusing that people always decide what's better based on their own personal views without considering that other users have different needs. Ultimately, the winner isn't always the most logical choice from a technical standpoint. These things are driven by priorities based mostly on profit margin for the OEM. Sometimes fair market value wins out, but, not always.

December 10th, 2004, 12:15 PM	#24
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	i guess my point of view is moot there Bill, ....but i will say that one big boost to blueray will be support by the playstions and if microsoft joins in the xboxs... if current sales are any indications, at least here in the us those gaming devices are popular buggers and should boost popularity of this format... as a developer though i could care less, if my client wants blue ray i ship blue ray, they hd-dvd i ship that...

December 10th, 2004, 12:18 PM	#25
Jesse Bekas Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, USA Posts: 572	VHS mostly won out because when the tapes were stupid expensive they had the most storage. People must stop comparing that format war to this. There was no exisiting consumer architecture for cassette-tape video at that time. There has been a disc based video architecture in DVD, which is why HD-DVD has a strong advantage. If back in the day there had already been a Beta format for a few years, and then people had a choice between VHS and Beta2, VHS would have bit the dust. It's all about best bang for the buck. We're gonna get stuck with HD-DVD, and by the time media companies (not the public) deem that obsolete, we will all be moving on to flash-based (or holographic, if you believe that), solid state media.

December 15th, 2004, 08:11 AM	#28
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	seems to me that price point is a critical issue. If one format can burn any other format with a single laser head and the other competeing format needs two seperate laser heads, which one will cost more and which one will be more reliable?