New HDV Camcorders

Christopher C. Murphy · January 26th, 2004, 10:56 AM

I agree. Hopefully, we'll hear some annoucements soon or NAB 2004 the latest.

Anyone else going to NAB in April? We should get together for a beer in Vegas!

Murph

Anhar Miah · January 26th, 2004, 05:00 PM

Yea i agree with the last post, although thats capatalism for you!!
(please that was a light hearted joke, please lets not slip into some ugly politics, its the wrong forum for that!)

Any way, i guess i'm really frustaded at the moment, i really feel like that whole manufactures are really not giving us what we all REALLY, DEEP DOWN WANT and thats FULL SIZED (35mm) IMAGE SENSORS FOR VIDEO, and i know about Dalsa but they are just adding too more frustation, just a nice picture of a prototype THAT *still* has yet to produce anything, no news/ updates just market news ...

I'm really losing hope in ever seeing such things at the current rate, its al about profit really,

DAY DREAM MOMENT:

IF only there was a way to get a direct video stream from that Canon digital still camera (the one with the full 35mm CMOS sensor) then just cature the data directly on a PC/ laptop (maybe with some light compression)..... any electronic reverse engineer wizkids around?

END OF DAY DREAM.

The 'ol donkey and carrot situation, you now so close, yet so far..... just another thing we want that we just not ALLOWED to have, like electric cars, and ZERO POINT ENERGY.

Michael Struthers · January 27th, 2004, 04:28 PM

..but it will cost you 100k. Is that what you want?

HDV even with crappy mpeg2 compression, will translate well enough to get to the big screen...if the script, look, and acting is there.

Christopher C. Murphy · January 27th, 2004, 08:44 PM

Hey Joe, every business should be forced to have that saying posted at the door below their sign....we'd probably all think twice before buying most things.

Bottom line - the HDV Revolution has begun. But, it's like the Civil War, WWII and most wars instead...it's starting slow...and it'll build until everyone is involved.

Murph

Ignacio Rodriguez · January 29th, 2004, 12:45 PM

> IF only there was a way to get a direct video stream from
> that Canon digital still camera (the one with the full
> 35mm CMOS sensor) then just cature the data directly on
> a PC/ laptop (maybe with some light compression).....
> any electronic reverse engineer wizkids around?

Sorry, which model camera is that?

Anhar Miah · January 30th, 2004, 06:51 PM

Surely you must have heard about it!! :-)

Its the Canon EOS 1Ds

Here is a nice review :

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0209/02092404canoneos1ds.asp

OR check out Canon's webiste they have some sample pictures you can download including full uncompressed pictures taken from this Baby!!

Cheers!!

------- Anhar Miah

Robert Jackson · January 30th, 2004, 11:01 PM

In the new issue of American Cinematographer there's an article about a new Arri prototype camera that uses a single 35mm-sized sensor (single sensor to avoid color fringing in 3-chip cameras). The CMOS setup they're using is rated at 6 megapixels according to the article and has 60 db of dynamic range (translating to over 10 stops of latitude). 10 Gbit/sec data storage rates, though, kind of dictate what level of hardware will be needed for realtime editing of a stream like this. Not to mention that Arri has never been known for bargain basement pricing. Still, it's quite a prospect. I can't wait to see something shot with it.

Charles Papert · January 31st, 2004, 12:48 PM

I started a thread on this camera here yesterday. I was thinking of posting in here as well, but this cameras not HDV, and well, it's not strictly "Towards a Film Look Using DV" either. Maybe we should open an HD (beyond the DV format) area.

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 4th, 2004, 12:26 PM

> but it will cost you 100k. Is that what you want?

If it can cost us $7k for a top of the line photo cam then it can cost roughly the same for video. The main difference is in the data processing, which is the least expensive part of the camera. So it's just their decision to sell a $100k camera for uncompressed HD. If a camera with Canon's optics and CMOS sensor does 1920x1080@30fps with MPEG2 that's enough to make us all really happy, and they can probably do it now for less than $10k if they want. They would have to run the tape a little faster to get that res onto MiniDV, even with HDV's MPEG2... run the tape at DVCAM speed, and get the extra bandwidth for real HD resolution (instead of the lower HDV implementation that JVC has given us at SP tape speed).

I would not be surprised to find Sony and Canon racing to get there first. They both have the capability... then again I wonder where Canon got the CMOS sensor for the still camera from...

Vlad Manning · February 15th, 2004, 10:13 PM

Canon makes their own still camera sensors.

I don't doubt all the big names in Japan are planning pro-sumer -or whatever- 720p HD cams, but I think there still could be another year or more wait before anything comes to market. The JVC is no runaway best seller so there's no big incentive for anyone to rush.

The more letters they get asking for an affordable HD, the sooner those fires may be stoked under the chairs of Sony, Canon -or Sharp. Try writing to the Office of The President, of each company.

Bill Ravens · February 16th, 2004, 10:13 AM

The HD editting and writing hardware/software is here. Cineform's Connect DV can do the HD capture. The new 3ivx codec supports HD formats. I can encode still image HD content into 3ivx via Vegas4; and, the quality is excellent. I can put the video on HD-DVD with Mpeg4 capability and play it to my new Sony HDTV. The cameras to support the infrastructure are all that remains to be put on the consumer shelf. I' m holding my breath for the announcement of the new Canon XL2.

Joe Carney · February 16th, 2004, 10:38 AM

What is the 3vid codec. It seems to be part of 3ivx, but their web site doesn't say so.

Bill Ravens · February 16th, 2004, 10:50 AM

oops...sorry...in fact I meant 3ivx...thanx for the catch

Marc Young · February 16th, 2004, 06:21 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Anhar Miah : Surely you must have heard about it!! :-)

Its the Canon EOS 1Ds

Here is a nice review :

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0209/02092404canoneos1ds.asp

-->>>

Nice camera, but for a few grand less, consider the EOS 1D Mk 2. Both can shoot at 8 stills/sec sustained, depending on the capacity & speed of the flash card or micro drive. When you scale the megapixels per second (roughly 64 MP/sec) vs 22 MP/sec for 720p 24 f/sec HD, you can see we are more than there. All we need is real-time compression for the storage medium, because that seems to be the fundamental limitation right now. Canon definitely has the imaging technology and lenses, but they just have to get other parts in play, video conversion and storage.

Charles Papert posted an interesting rumor about a new Sony HDV camera on http://steadicamforum.com/. It would be great if this product could be delivered this year, while the weather is warm, i.e., before winter rolls around again. I'd seriously bite for a street price of $12K. Provided it had manual controls and the ability/capability to do follow focus.

Charles Papert · February 16th, 2004, 07:35 PM

I did indeed, and in fact that info had appeared as an unsubstantiated rumor on this site originally (I found it on some other sites, and since it isn't exactly earth-shattering news, I felt it had some validity).

However, it is an HD camera head, not an HDV camcorder, and even as such is meant to be a special use broadcast camera. It really doesn't impact this market noticeably. I'm becoming a bit of a nag about making sure we are using the correct format nomenclature so there aren't misperceptions about these things; DV, HDV and HD are all very different animals!

January 26th, 2004, 10:56 AM	#16
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Beers with Murph...in Vegas. I agree. Hopefully, we'll hear some annoucements soon or NAB 2004 the latest. Anyone else going to NAB in April? We should get together for a beer in Vegas! Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

January 27th, 2004, 04:28 PM	#18
Michael Struthers Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: SF, Ca Posts: 421	Sure they'll give them to you ..but it will cost you 100k. Is that what you want? HDV even with crappy mpeg2 compression, will translate well enough to get to the big screen...if the script, look, and acting is there. __________________ Michael Struthers www.buzzdigital.com

January 27th, 2004, 08:44 PM	#19
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Hey Joe, every business should be forced to have that saying posted at the door below their sign....we'd probably all think twice before buying most things. Bottom line - the HDV Revolution has begun. But, it's like the Civil War, WWII and most wars instead...it's starting slow...and it'll build until everyone is involved. Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

January 29th, 2004, 12:45 PM	#20
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> IF only there was a way to get a direct video stream from > that Canon digital still camera (the one with the full > 35mm CMOS sensor) then just cature the data directly on > a PC/ laptop (maybe with some light compression)..... > any electronic reverse engineer wizkids around? Sorry, which model camera is that? __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

January 31st, 2004, 12:48 PM	#23
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	I started a thread on this camera here yesterday. I was thinking of posting in here as well, but this cameras not HDV, and well, it's not strictly "Towards a Film Look Using DV" either. Maybe we should open an HD (beyond the DV format) area. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

January 26th, 2004, 05:00 PM	#17
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	Yea i agree with the last post, although thats capatalism for you!! (please that was a light hearted joke, please lets not slip into some ugly politics, its the wrong forum for that!) Any way, i guess i'm really frustaded at the moment, i really feel like that whole manufactures are really not giving us what we all REALLY, DEEP DOWN WANT and thats FULL SIZED (35mm) IMAGE SENSORS FOR VIDEO, and i know about Dalsa but they are just adding too more frustation, just a nice picture of a prototype THAT still has yet to produce anything, no news/ updates just market news ... I'm really losing hope in ever seeing such things at the current rate, its al about profit really, DAY DREAM MOMENT: IF only there was a way to get a direct video stream from that Canon digital still camera (the one with the full 35mm CMOS sensor) then just cature the data directly on a PC/ laptop (maybe with some light compression)..... any electronic reverse engineer wizkids around? END OF DAY DREAM. The 'ol donkey and carrot situation, you now so close, yet so far..... just another thing we want that we just not ALLOWED to have, like electric cars, and ZERO POINT ENERGY.

January 30th, 2004, 06:51 PM	#21
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	Surely you must have heard about it!! :-) Its the Canon EOS 1Ds Here is a nice review : http://www.dpreview.com/news/0209/02092404canoneos1ds.asp OR check out Canon's webiste they have some sample pictures you can download including full uncompressed pictures taken from this Baby!! Cheers!! ------- Anhar Miah

January 30th, 2004, 11:01 PM	#22
Robert Jackson Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 390	In the new issue of American Cinematographer there's an article about a new Arri prototype camera that uses a single 35mm-sized sensor (single sensor to avoid color fringing in 3-chip cameras). The CMOS setup they're using is rated at 6 megapixels according to the article and has 60 db of dynamic range (translating to over 10 stops of latitude). 10 Gbit/sec data storage rates, though, kind of dictate what level of hardware will be needed for realtime editing of a stream like this. Not to mention that Arri has never been known for bargain basement pricing. Still, it's quite a prospect. I can't wait to see something shot with it.

February 4th, 2004, 12:26 PM	#24
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> but it will cost you 100k. Is that what you want? If it can cost us $7k for a top of the line photo cam then it can cost roughly the same for video. The main difference is in the data processing, which is the least expensive part of the camera. So it's just their decision to sell a $100k camera for uncompressed HD. If a camera with Canon's optics and CMOS sensor does 1920x1080@30fps with MPEG2 that's enough to make us all really happy, and they can probably do it now for less than $10k if they want. They would have to run the tape a little faster to get that res onto MiniDV, even with HDV's MPEG2... run the tape at DVCAM speed, and get the extra bandwidth for real HD resolution (instead of the lower HDV implementation that JVC has given us at SP tape speed). I would not be surprised to find Sony and Canon racing to get there first. They both have the capability... then again I wonder where Canon got the CMOS sensor for the still camera from... __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 15th, 2004, 10:13 PM	#25
Vlad Manning New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: US Posts: 19	Canon makes their own still camera sensors. I don't doubt all the big names in Japan are planning pro-sumer -or whatever- 720p HD cams, but I think there still could be another year or more wait before anything comes to market. The JVC is no runaway best seller so there's no big incentive for anyone to rush. The more letters they get asking for an affordable HD, the sooner those fires may be stoked under the chairs of Sony, Canon -or Sharp. Try writing to the Office of The President, of each company.

February 16th, 2004, 10:13 AM	#26
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	The HD editting and writing hardware/software is here. Cineform's Connect DV can do the HD capture. The new 3ivx codec supports HD formats. I can encode still image HD content into 3ivx via Vegas4; and, the quality is excellent. I can put the video on HD-DVD with Mpeg4 capability and play it to my new Sony HDTV. The cameras to support the infrastructure are all that remains to be put on the consumer shelf. I' m holding my breath for the announcement of the new Canon XL2.

February 16th, 2004, 10:38 AM	#27
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	What is the 3vid codec. It seems to be part of 3ivx, but their web site doesn't say so.

February 16th, 2004, 10:50 AM	#28
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	oops...sorry...in fact I meant 3ivx...thanx for the catch

February 16th, 2004, 06:21 PM	#29
Marc Young Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 112	<<<-- Originally posted by Anhar Miah : Surely you must have heard about it!! :-) Its the Canon EOS 1Ds Here is a nice review : http://www.dpreview.com/news/0209/02092404canoneos1ds.asp -->>> Nice camera, but for a few grand less, consider the EOS 1D Mk 2. Both can shoot at 8 stills/sec sustained, depending on the capacity & speed of the flash card or micro drive. When you scale the megapixels per second (roughly 64 MP/sec) vs 22 MP/sec for 720p 24 f/sec HD, you can see we are more than there. All we need is real-time compression for the storage medium, because that seems to be the fundamental limitation right now. Canon definitely has the imaging technology and lenses, but they just have to get other parts in play, video conversion and storage. Charles Papert posted an interesting rumor about a new Sony HDV camera on http://steadicamforum.com/. It would be great if this product could be delivered this year, while the weather is warm, i.e., before winter rolls around again. I'd seriously bite for a street price of $12K. Provided it had manual controls and the ability/capability to do follow focus.

February 16th, 2004, 07:35 PM	#30
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	I did indeed, and in fact that info had appeared as an unsubstantiated rumor on this site originally (I found it on some other sites, and since it isn't exactly earth-shattering news, I felt it had some validity). However, it is an HD camera head, not an HDV camcorder, and even as such is meant to be a special use broadcast camera. It really doesn't impact this market noticeably. I'm becoming a bit of a nag about making sure we are using the correct format nomenclature so there aren't misperceptions about these things; DV, HDV and HD are all very different animals! __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com