Reports of Blu-Ray's expensive licensing fees?

[Gary Williams]

Originally Posted by Evan C. King

The threat of heavy amount of drm was the only reason why I was afraid of blu winning in the first place. I hope there's a way end users and content producers won't get screwed.

My feeling exactly not a good position to be in at this time.

[Brian Standing]

Well, there's AVCHD disks. AVCHD compatibility is built into the Blu Ray spec. As the default "consumer" HD acquisition format, one would assume that DRM won't be required.

Some of the folks on the Sony Vegas forum have been successfully burning AVCHD to DVD-DL.

Keepin' my fingers crossed.

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Brian Standing

Well, there's AVCHD disks. AVCHD compatibility is built into the Blu Ray spec. As the default "consumer" HD acquisition format, one would assume that DRM won't be required.

Some of the folks on the Sony Vegas forum have been successfully burning AVCHD to DVD-DL.

Keepin' my fingers crossed.

I've burned lots of them, but they don't play in every Blu-ray player.

[Brian Standing]

I thought folks might be interested in this correspondence I recently had with Mr. Morishita of the Blu-Ray Association.

I am an independent documentary producer who sells DVDs on Amazon and through the educational market. Most of my pieces are self-financed, and I have limited or no budget for licensing.

I have heard that in order to legally sell Blu-Ray disks to consumers to view on set-top players in their homes, I will need to pay licensing fees to the Blu-Ray association. Is this true? Is there a volume trigger beyond which licensing fees kick in? What> kind of fees could I expect? Are there any exceptions or lower rates for small, independent producers like myself?

Thanks very much in advance for the clarification.

Brian Standing, Madison, WI
Prolefeed Studios: www.prolefeedstudios.com
Documentary for the masses!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Mr. Standing,

Thanks for your interest to Blu-ray Disc format and your inquiry.

For an independent producer like you, we do have a free of charge Logo
License Agreement to use BD logo for your BD disc promotion and
advertisement www.blu-raydisc.info/license_app/lla_apps.php

If you would like to be listed as a BD licensee in our web site and your BD
disc to have Regional Protection Code, then you have to apply for Content
Participant Agreement-Light for the amount of $500 per year.

Our minimum requirement for an independent producer like you, is to make
sure that you place your order to a BD licensed disc manufacturer(authoring
house/replicator). It assures that licensed manufacturers are qualified disc
manufacturers which have proven the compatibility with the BD players in the
market.
For the list of licensed replicators, please visit our site.
http://www.blu-raydisc.info/flla_lic...lists_ROM2.php

Regards

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
Blu-ray Disc Association
Kappei Morishita
License Officer
10 Universal City Plaza, T-100
Universal City CA 91608 USA
Fax: 1-818-763-9027
E-mail: agent@blu-raydisc.info

[Brian Standing]

Here are my follow-up questions and Mr. Morishita's responses.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mr. Standing,

Let me try to answer one by one.

Q: I'm assuming, that as a small video producer, I'll most likely be
burning onto BD-R media. Is that correct?

A: Generally speaking as long as the number of copies you require is
less than a thousand, it makes more sense to burn your content in BD-R media
than BD-ROM media. However they can be playable only in BD Drive built-in PC
and many of BD Stand Alone movie players but NOT all. If you want your BD disc
to be playable on BD-ROM Movie player, I am afraid there isn't any
economically feasible way to manufacture BD-ROM and distribute.

Q: So, as a small, independent producer of documentaries, trying to
self-distribute to a home video and educational market here are my
three major questions:

Q: Do I burn onto BD-R, Version 1 or Version 2 (or does it matter)?

A: Not really.

Q: When I use a "licensed replicator" (I can't find anything in the Blu-Ray material that is specifically called "replicators," only "media") to meet the terms of the Blu-Ray Logo Agreement, will I have to pay AACS copy protection fees for each title? Or will I just pay the normal duplication costs? If I do have to pay for AACS copy protection, how much will those fees cost me for duplicating less than 500 copies?

A: Yes "licensed replicators" has the same meaning as "media". They normally manufacture only BD-ROM but in very large q'ty, minimum order of 10k or more. So I don't think it's worth asking them.

Q: If I decide I don't care about using the Blu-Ray logo on my disks, can I sell BD-R disks with no AACS copy protection, with no logo? If I do, will my audience be able to watch those disks on standalone Blu-Ray players?

A: Yes you can distribute BD-R discs without AACS but they can be copied/ripped by anyone just like CD.

Blu-ray Disc Association
Kappei Morishita
License Officer
10 Universal City Plaza, T-100
Universal City CA 91608 USA
Fax: 1-818-763-9027
E-mail: agent@blu-raydisc.info

[Jerome Cloninger]

Brain,
Thanks for posting! So it seems to me that only the media houses are required to pay the big license in order to be "licensed" or approved to create the BR-Rom -- or for doing LARGE runs like 10K or more.

It also appears that a dupe house that can do BR is not required to pay for each title....

BUT, if you want AACS, then its required.

Bunch of grey lines huh?

[Robert M Wright]

Originally Posted by Brian Standing

Q: I'm assuming, that as a small video producer, I'll most likely be
burning onto BD-R media. Is that correct?

A: Generally speaking as long as the number of copies you require is
less than a thousand, it makes more sense to burn your content in BD-R media
than BD-ROM media. However they can be playable only in BD Drive built-in PC
and many of BD Stand Alone movie players but NOT all. If you want your BD disc
to be playable on BD-ROM Movie player, I am afraid there isn't any
economically feasible way to manufacture BD-ROM and distribute.

It seems to me that antitrust laws might be being broken. By not making it mandatory (as part of the specs) that BD-R be playable on ALL stand alone movie players and there being no "economically feasible way to manufacture BD-ROM and distribute", small producers are arguably put at an unfair competitive disadvantage (to the big studios).

From Wikipedia:

Competition law, known in the United States as "antitrust law", has three main elements:

* prohibiting agreements or practices that restrict free trading and competition between business entities. This includes in particular the repression of cartels.
* banning abusive behaviour by a firm dominating a market, or anti-competitive practices that tend to lead to such a dominant position. Practices controlled in this way may include predatory pricing, tying, price gouging, refusal to deal and many others.
* supervising the mergers and acquisitions of large corporations, including some joint ventures. Transactions that are considered to threaten the competitive process can be prohibited altogether, or approved subject to "remedies" such as an obligation to divest part of the merged business or to offer licences or access to facilities to enable other businesses to continue competing.

[Dave Blackhurst]

I think the answer is relatively simple - develop a list of known conpatible players - this is no different than the situation with DVDs - compatibility issues out the wazoo... I've heard of event video guys just pricing in an inexpensive "free" player they know to be compatible and tossing it in with the package...

It would be NICE if BR is more effectively compatible, to be sure, but with new tech, there are always going to be issues.

AS to "antitrust"
<tongue in cheek mode on>
I'd kinda like to build my own car, but with all the gover-mint regu-layshuns, I can't compete with the big guys...

[Dylan Pank]

A: Yes you can distribute BD-R discs without AACS but they can be copied/ripped by anyone just like CD.

He seems a very nice, helpful chap, but has no-one broken the news to him?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology.../comment.media

I think soon all BD players will start to support "home made" material.
it's good news that AACS is not hard wired into the format.

(just in case anyone gets jumpy, the above link goes to a news story, and contains no information on HOW to crack AACS)

[Stephen Armour]

There's a very interesting article by Larry Jordan on the new Creative Planet's Digital Production BuZZ - Tips and Tricks Newsletter -- March 4, 2008

Very interesting because of it's final sentence:

"Depending how this plays out over the next year, Blu-Ray DVDs may become irrelevant, just as they were starting to be taken seriously."


http://www.digitalproductionbuzz.com/CPCeNewsletter/ (don't know if you can see it there, but their Podcast should have it too: http://www.digitalproductionbuzz.com/Podcast/ )

[Dave Blackhurst]

The inherent problem with copy protection and security "schemes" is that they are only effective as long as they can be kept secret - once the "secret" is out, there are lots of "creative" people ready and willing to exploit or otherwise bypass the "security".

Security Rule #1, NOTHING is uncrackable.
Security Rule #2, if you claim something is uncrackable, SOMEONE will prove you wrong...

[Dylan Pank]

Dave, no, the problem with THESE copy protection schemes is that they're more of an inconvenience to customers and (independent) producers than to file sharers and pirates.

[Jon Fairhurst]

I've always liked this ad promotion:

DIGITAL - It's everything you could do with analog - AND LESS!!!

[Dave Blackhurst]

Originally Posted by Dylan Pank

Dave, no, the problem with THESE copy protection schemes is that they're more of an inconvenience to customers and (independent) producers than to file sharers and pirates.

You've made my point - copy protection "schemes" are designed to make it inconvenient to make copies... which PRIMARILY affects the casual user who makes a backup or a rare copy. They DO NOT present a serious obstacle to the very parties who seek to profit from... MAKING COPIES.

They ultimately provides little protection against the pirates who will turn out hundreds or thousands of copies, so have a financial interest in doing so.

And in inconveniencing the "end user", the manufacturers discourage the adpotion of the very things they are trying to protect and profit from! In the short term this makes some sense to some bean counter, who is trying to preserve "profits" from a traditional product curve that I suspect no longer exists in the digital world...

The new paradigm is - offer a reasonable price, offer it fast and sell a boatload (making your profits on quantity, not high per piece markup), move on to the next thing, repeat - oddly enough the exact "business model" employed by the pirates - if the legit businesses adopted that mindset, there might be no pirating, as there no longer would be any profit in it!

How many Blu-ray players/burners/content discs do you think they would sell at a competitive price point to current DVD offerings? DVD would die nearly overnight.

Traditional marketing says you have to protect your product through a life cycle, start pricing high, then slowly move it down until you introduce the "next big thing" at a high price, and commoditize the "old tech". I'm not sure that mindset has much validity now, and expect it will become less and less viable as time goes by.

Enough philosophy, but I think you get my point...

[Larry Price]

Dave! Stop that at once! You're making entirely too much sense. Do you have any idea how dangerous that is??? The MPAA knows and hears all...