Reports of Blu-Ray's expensive licensing fees?

[Eric Stemen]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

You can't realistically ask the people who attended a wedding/school play/amateur sporting event to purchase new BD players from your recommended list.

You can much more easily ask them to buy a new BD player than pay over a $1000 to watch the disk. But someone else has already done the research and found out this is not necessary.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Eric,

It might not be legally necessary to include AACS, but the problem is that not all players will play AACS-free discs.

http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...pic=20850&st=0

[Thomas Smet]

This method of charging people should be illegal.

Can you imaging having to pay Epson or HP a fee every time you printed out a photgraph to sell to people? After all you are using their print technology to create items that you sell.

How about having to pay Canon or Nikon when you shoot a photograph that you sell?

What about having to pay Adobe when you create some cool graphic you sell on a stock footage website?

Since a HDV camera uses mpeg2 encoding I guess we cannot shoot any stock footage and sell that either or else we are breaking the law.

The only reason why these companies can charge these stupid fees is because nobody has told them they cannot. Nobody in congress is ever going to pass a law against this stupid sort of thing. Most other companies in the industry realize they cannot suck money out of people this way because it would never fly.

I can see licensing for copyright protection since we have to pay for that somehow but none of this other garbage that has to be paid to SONY or the Mpeg2 group. It isn't as if I am asking the mpeg2 group on SONY to encode it for me. I already paid both of those groups when I bought the software. I am all for copy protection and getting paid for the work that has been done on a product but the way I look at it I already paid Sony and the mpeg2 group when I bought a Blu-ray burner and a expensive mpeg2 encoder. If they want to nickel and dime us for every product we create then they should give the software and hardware for free and charge us every time we use it.

[Alan Emery]

Interesting discussion. I wonder if the fact that there are now millions of HD TV sets and soon to be millions of HD consumer cameras with folks who will want to edit and see their home movies in high definition will exert any pressure on Sony and Blu-Ray?

Presumably the only high definition DVD format for home movies will also be Blu-Ray discs or some Blu-Ray style transfer on a standard DVD. Software such as Ulead Movie Factory 6+ or DVDit ProHD offer the ability to create "Blu-Ray" recordings "for the masses".

If the new consumer HD owners are not able to play their movies or to pass them around to different family members and friends who have different players (all ostensibly Blu-Ray) that will not play the discs, there will be a pretty big number of annoyed and disatisfied customers looking to retrieve their money invested in a technology that does not function.

[Giroud Francois]

that is the problem.
Sony wants to make us believe that HD is Blu-ray.
but you can store and play HD from many ways and a lot are cheaper and simpler. For instance the best way is to buy an harddisk based HD player and send the movies as data to your customer (WMV-HD on DVD for example or by download) , then they transfer it on the player.
I think people will realize soon that Sony is just implementing a kind of "blackmail" by media and as Mp3 almost killed CD, some virtual form of HD (not media based,but content based) will kill blu-ray.
today, thanks to youtube and camcorder, people are not more interested to just play purchased content, they want to record, edit, distribute their own.

[Tim Polster]

Originally Posted by Eric Stemen

You can much more easily ask them to buy a new BD player than pay over a $1000 to watch the disk. But someone else has already done the research and found out this is not necessary.

Eric, I think you are missing the point here. For these types of events, you can't ask anything of your customers.

They see you, they buy, it works or it doesn't work and they want a refund.

There is no room or expectation of buying anything or spending any more than the price of your product.

I personally am waiting on distributing anything in HD for quite some time unless it is a contract type of job.

It will be years before the lower level content producers can confidently sell HD discs and not fear them coming back due to the players not working or even having the players to begin with.


As far as Hard Drive players, I don't think they will be allowed to flurish due to the demise of the audio world with mp3's.

All content producers are trying to not repeat what has happened to the music industry. It is messy, but I can understand their point. - Spend $200 million dollars on a film and have it mass produced without ever seeing any proceeds.

[Alan Emery]

Who is happy?

- studios producing major movies appear to have no downside to the success of Blu-Ray
- the manufacturers of BD discs are happy
- Sony the manufacturer of BD players has no downside of course
- the licensing agencies are happy
- the mass consumer of movies will be pleased not be forced to choose

Who is unhappy?

-Toshiba, of course, but they have gone to "plan B"
- the independent film maker for all the reasons you have all cited, and we do not yet seem to have a "plan B"

The implication is that no really big financial force in the industry is currently unhappy. The event photographers can get a free license to use the BD logo, but have no way to get AACS codes (making BD players reliable) for free or a reasonable one time fee. I am not sure how well documentary makers will fare in their application procedures.

At the same time the major studios need to protect their content. Current capability to crack the codes is pretty high, so that does not seem to be working especially well. In practice it is ineffective against the big bad guys, but hurts the little good guys.

Is there some way the independent film sector could collectively suggest a solution? For example, the independents need to be able to produce HD discs that are not in competition with the big boys so do not need content protection but that will play reliably on any BD player. Actually so will the consumer level HD movie maker need reliable BD players so they will be allies as will the HD consumer level camera makers.

Here is one suggestion. I am sure the indie group can come up with others that are much better, but this might start the conversation on how to get a plan B acceptable to all.

What about a consortium of independent film makers recommending a code similar to the AACS but intended only to notify BD players that the disc is OK to play? A one-time low-level fee would register an independent and provide the code.

I am not certain at what level of duplication the major studios might see competition -- but say 10,000 discs is the limit for any one title. Even for an independent, success above 10,000 discs could probably lever a real AACS code fee of $2,500.

Food for thought -- and the independents are going to need a legal plan B.

Alan

[Tim Polster]

You raise good points Alan.

But I have to think, Sony makes cameras.

Nobody outside of broadcast outfits will want to buy HD cameras if they learn the footage can not be reliably played back.

What's the point?

This is kind of why I have been sort of against the whole HDV revolution for quite some time because it is putting medium before the media.

If the Blu-Ray group wants to shut out independent producers, who is going to buy all of the $1000 - $8,000 cameras?

These new cameras create great images, but if the web is the only place to view the footage, then I will continue to have a jaded view.

It is tough though. The very discs they are trying to block are burned on the same equipment small producers might use.

Also, the fact that Blu-Ray is a consortium makes it tough to get answers from one source.

I hope they can work some things out, soon.

[Eric Stemen]

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

Eric, I think you are missing the point here. For these types of events, you can't ask anything of your customers.

They see you, they buy, it works or it doesn't work and they want a refund.

You can demand anything you want from you customers.....it just doesn't mean you will get it. If you explain to the customer exactly what is going on they will be much more understanding(I work in retail ,along with a TV station, I know this). You don't have to give a refund ever, especially if you make a contract and tell them before hand....go the extra mile to tell people what could happen...sorry for the cleche.
Take DVD's for example. There are both + and - versions of them. Not all DVD players will play both. Fortunately with this it's a cheap fix of just burning the other version.
Now as other's have mentioned before there is web delivery also. You could let customers download the HD video files. You can distribute both a SD version of the disk, and a BD version and when they eventually decide to upgrade(prices always come down, when they want to see something badly enough they can pay for a new player..... I mean they already payed $600 for a wedding video or equivalent....if people will pay for this service they are not dirt poor.)
I really don't see this as being that big of a deal. Just give people something they can definatly watch. People are pretty understanding as long as you aren't a jerk, and yes, at times this can be hard.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Eric Stemen

You could let customers download the HD video files.

That's far from a ubiquitous solution.

I live within 18 miles of an international airport, yet I cannot get true broadband. I pay $50 per month for 256 kbps wireless Internet. The only other options for me are satellite and dial-up.

Asking Grandma to download HD video files might not work so well either. But I'd bet she owns and can use a DVD player.

The key is that new players need to be able to play AACS-free discs. And product reviewers should be testing for the feature.

[Tim Polster]

Originally Posted by Eric Stemen

You can demand anything you want from you customers.....it just doesn't mean you will get it.

Well this is why I have stayed away from HD so far.

Demanding something you might not get from your customers is not a good business plan.

Weddings are a bit different as you have one customer you can meet with and they can get to know you.

But other 'event' work where you are recording a live event and trying to sell it to the attendees, forget about HD for a while.

You have no interaction with these customers. No time to explain anything other than price.

For this type of work, I am keeping my SD cameras until DVD sounds like yesterdays technology, because it will work, and reliability is more important than the image being a bit sharper.

I will probably pick up an EX-1 hopefully with a Convergent Designs XDR unit, but this type of filming will only be with certain types of projects.

What has bothered me about HD is that it is not going to be a one size fits all type of camera purchase like DV cameras were.

There will be some folks that will always have a DVD player and never buy a HD player.

This AACS mess will make that situation even worse for us.

Right now, I am resigned to only using HD for projects short enough to burn to a DVD (~20 min) and wait for some more dust to settle in the Blu-ray world.

We have to be able to distribute in HD. Just watching the footage that looks so great in the edit bay and gets dumbed down for customers just does not fly.

[Paulo Teixeira]

http://www.createspace.com/Products/Replication.jsp
“Copy Protection or Encryption (AACS) is available for $2,500 per title, plus $0.10/disc”
Wouldn’t that mean that it’s not mandatory?

Although there is also this:
http://www.createspace.com/Products/BrDOnDemand.jsp
“Pricing and availability will be announced as soon as key technology issues are resolved.”
Not sure if that really means anything.

Someone could try emailing them for further information. I’ve already emailed a different replication company and they haven’t responded yet.

At least most Blu-Ray players (meaning the PS3) shouldn’t have any issues playing back non AACS discs. The PS3 not being able to playback native EX1 clips is another story and I hope Sony fixes that with a firmware update.

Besides the fact that Sony makes camcorders, they also makes Blu-Ray burners. That alone should prove that they aren’t trying to stop Independent Producers from making their own content.

For Apple computers, Adobe Encore does allow people to author their own Blu-Ray discs but a lot of people would prefer to use DVD Studio and now that Blu-Ray finally won, I really don’t see a reason for Apple not upgrading it and releasing a Blu-Ray drive as a built to order option. They are loosing a lot of money taking this long.

[Philip Williams]

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

http://www.createspace.com/Products/Replication.jsp
“Copy Protection or Encryption (AACS) is available for $2,500 per title, plus $0.10/disc”
Wouldn’t that mean that it’s not mandatory?

I'm not 100% sure, but I'd guess if you have them replicate a "Basic" disc as opposed to a BD-J disc, you could do it without AACS. If you want to replicate a BD-J disc, even if they *could* do it without AACS, your disc is unlikely to work anywhere including the PS3 (since this is a security "feature", not some hardware or software limitation).

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

Although there is also this:
http://www.createspace.com/Products/BrDOnDemand.jsp
“Pricing and availability will be announced as soon as key technology issues are resolved.”
Not sure if that really means anything.

They're likely still looking for an affordable place to easily get discs replicated. HD DVD has always had a huge production advantage with easily converted DVD lines printing HD DVDs. Additionally, most of the on-demand HD DVDs are simply replicated on DVD9 discs, which allow for about an 80-90 minute presentation using VC1. Blu-Ray production has had more limited availability and there have been fewer independent replicators. This is primarily due to the substantial capital investment to install brand new BD lines. Obviously now that BD has won, that'll improve. I just read that Cinram is adding 15 BD50 capable lines - that's a jump from the 2 they have now!

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

Besides the fact that Sony makes camcorders, they also makes Blu-Ray burners. That alone should prove that they aren’t trying to stop Independent Producers from making their own content.

Well lets just say they have a tight grip on what we can and can't do :)
Basically what it looks like right now is that the studios get all the cool toys (BD-J authored discs) and people that won't or can't cough up $2,500 + 10c per disc AACS fees get to play with "Basic" authored discs.

So we'll be able to distribute our content, its just kind of a bummer that we don't get to play with all the toys. With DVD (and HD DVD for that matter) we pretty much could do everything a studio did. If you wanted to put the time and effort into your DVD, you could give it all the razmataz of a studio release. That's gone. What we're basically going to have is approximately the types of menus and features we're used to with DVD, with the only difference being that our main presentations will be in HD. The whole "next generation" interactivity and capability that Blu-Ray brings to the table is... well, off the table :(

[Alan Emery]

I asked Createspace the following: "In what format should I prepare a title for Blu-ray on demand?"

Kelly Beck replied: "At this time we are not offering Blu-ray duplication services"

I asked: "Does this mean you are not offering a high definition on demand sales option? That is all of the sales at this time are standard definition? I assume the HD DVD sales are no longer of any interest. Is that correct? Interesting times - I wonder what's next."

Kelly kindly and almost immediately replied again: "HD DVD is in Beta with some already for sale and Blu-ray is coming"

Alan

[Evan C. King]

The threat of heavy amount of drm was the only reason why I was afraid of blu winning in the first place. I hope there's a way end users and content producers won't get screwed.