HD/DVD/Blu-Ray 1080p Resolving Power

[Tim Polster]

Hello,

I read some posts on the AVS forum that said that unless you are using a television with a scan rate of the multiple of 24hz, then the output from the HD/DVD/Blu-Ray is converted to 1080i. (most sets have a 60hz refresh rate)

This is only for 24 fps content which most will probably be.

These posts were aimed at the need for 1080p television sets.

So is this true?

If so, it is kind of discuraging as the only true 1080p source had an asterisk by the specs.

Although it will save us money as the 720p sets are a lot cheaper.

Any thoughts?

[Pedanes Bol]

So, does this mean that if you have a HD DVD/Blu Ray player which can play 24p 1080 content but the image actually displayed on the screen is 1080i if your TV's refresh rate is 60Hz (most TVs in the US are 60Hz)?

Some Sony TV sets now come with 120Hz refresh rate (5X of 24Hz). Will those sets display the 24p content as it is?

P.

[Tim Polster]

That is how I understood the posts I read.

Basically, the only tv's that will show the 1080p content at full resolution are the 120 hz models.

All other tv's will show HD-DVD/Blu-Ray content at 1080i.

I thought I would bring this up here and have the pro video folks try to verify it.

[Thomas Smet]

I don't know about the 120hz sets but it is true that a 1080p player will only look better if you have a brandnew 1080p HDTV. 95% of the current HDTV's that are out there already are 1280x720, 1366x768 or an older analog 1080i HDTV. I read people always knocking the lower model HD-DVD players for not having 1080p but really only a small group of people will gain anything from a true 1080p player. A ll those millions of people who already own a expensive HDTV are not going to rush out and buy a whole new expensive one just to move from 1080i to 1080p. Sure 1080p is better but in many ways it is just a way to get people to buy yet another new TV because they will feel their current one is inferior. I think some tech heads are starting to get a little out of control with the rapid movement of what they feel is better quality.

To answer your question though I am pretty sure a 60hz HDTV will still play 1080p. It just gets played as 2:3 and will not have as smooth as motion. A 120hz set is a multiple of 24 so every frame sits on the screen for the same length of time. The 60hz display should still be 60p however.

[Craig Seeman]

There are plenty of 1080P TV sets on the market now. They're now only a bit more expensive then the 720p/1080i models.

I've seen Vizio and Westinghouse 42" 1080p LCDs for aroun $1099. I didn't check their refresh rates though.

1080p is a MUST for me since I'm going to be getting a Sony PMW-EX1 XDCAM (HD). It shoots 1080p24 (and 25), 1080p30 (as well as 1080i60).

When I shoot 1080p I want to show my clients 1080p. Of course there are many times when I'll shoot 720p (24, 30 or 60) depending on the job.

I do need to be able to show a client the difference though.

BTW one "feature" of the above camera which makes me cheer on Blu-ray is, as explained by Sony, I'll be able to take the file from the camera, change the extention to .ts and burn it on to a Blu-ray disk which will play in a Blu-ray player. Quick copy of a master file. No compressing for disk needed!

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

BTW one "feature" of the above camera which makes me cheer on Blu-ray is, as explained by Sony, I'll be able to take the file from the camera, change the extention to .ts and burn it on to a Blu-ray disk which will play in a Blu-ray player. Quick copy of a master file. No compressing for disk needed!

Better yet, you may be able to put those files on a USB2 hard drive and play them directly on a Sony PS3 without having to burn a disc - thus saving some time and hassle to view your content. This works with standard HDV files captured on a Windows PC, so I'd think XDCAM will work too.

[Craig Seeman]

I'd think I'd rather give the client a disk unless they want to pay for the drive.

BTW you can burn it on to a DVD-R as well (for Blu-ray player playback) but you'll get a very short run time. Something like 12 minutes maybe.

Now if HD-DVD would play that DVD-R too that would certainly help when it comes to, Does the client have HD-DVD or Blu-ray.

It would also mean that those "inexpensive" HD-DVD players might be ok for playing a 720p demo or short project delivery.

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

Better yet, you may be able to put those files on a USB2 hard drive and play them directly on a Sony PS3 without having to burn a disc - thus saving some time and hassle to view your content. This works with standard HDV files captured on a Windows PC, so I'd think XDCAM will work too.

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I'd think I'd rather give the client a disk unless they want to pay for the drive.

Indeed, but the PS3 can be useful for reviewing your raw footage on an HDTV or previewing a finished project before burning a disc. And yes, it would be nice if footage on a DVD-R disc would play on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD players, so there's something to test once the cameras are shipping.

[Peter Jefferson]

I think there is some confusion here.

24hz is indeed 24fps. However just because the panel may not support 24hz, it does not mean the image is compromised.

If its 50 or 60hz, it doesn't matter.

What you're seeing is still progressive scan, as the panels themselves are natively progressive. Even if you throw a 50i stream on said panel, what you SEE WILL BE progressive. In most cases, the panel will deinterlace or scale this footage. If its native footage, it will run a pulldown cycle within the panel to adhere to the voltage requirements of whatever region you may be in.

Even though LCD panels don't have the voltage cycles as CRT or plasmas, they come damn close in emulating them (via refresh cycle <i.e. latency response clock time>)... especially the new Samsung models (which was a surprise to me).

[Robert Ducon]

Restating the question:

Will each frame of 24P footage look more like the 'original' footage on a 120hz 1080P HDTV than on a 60hz 1080P TV?

Or, how much worse off will the 3:2 pulldown of 24P to 60i look on a 60hz 1080P TV?

Or, is there an advantage to buying a 120hz TV if there's the option to do so?

The AVS Forum bigwigs really know their stuff most of the time, so I think you already have your answer ;)

[Tim Polster]

Exactly.

I called Toshiba support today and was told that all of their player output 1080p at 60hz.

But, as usual, I take all product support with need for verification.

This is a big issue for television purchases (if it is really an issue).

One can save a lot if 1080p is not in the picture.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

The Pioneer Kuro line in Europe - even though being PAL, its basic refresh rate is 50 Hz - has the special PureCinema mode, where it operates at 72 Hz as the multiplicity of 24 fps. So I guess it's not unimportant to movement in 24p!