Even Kodak is doing 720p digital still camera at DVinfo.net

Wayne Morellini · August 1st, 2007, 01:08 AM

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQueri...q-locale=en_US
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQueri...q-locale=en_US

What is taking video manufacturers so long to offer an descent low end 720p camera?

Jamie Allan · August 1st, 2007, 02:09 AM

The standard trickle of technology down to consumers ? Decent low-end hardware is always last to come through...

Xavier Etown · August 2nd, 2007, 08:08 PM

This camera appears to be better than the Canon TX1. But a NiMH battery instead of lithium??? I'll wait and see what comes out near Christmas.

Wayne Morellini · August 3rd, 2007, 10:56 AM

I tired to get max data rates of the camera out of Kodak support, but kept getting the wrong information. So, the only information I appear to have is that it does 80 minutes at 2 GB, which works out to be around 3.33Mb/s. Hopefully not, that is quiet low. 9mb/s would be better, and 19mb/s better again. It has no HDMI to take advantage of the Intensity capture cards. So, if this information is true, it is an novelty for an number of us.

Seriously, there should be much better 720p cameras. Mpeg2 HDTV channels may not deliver an suitable 1080i picture, and most HDTV's are built more to suite 720p. 1080i is an waste of time for HDTV, and 720p25/30/50/60 can deliver better in HDTV. For future use, digital cinema, disks and TV, 720p50 offers an nicer practical low end work flow option than 1080p50. It is only in HD disks that it really can deliver. Which brings us to 8Mp SHDTV Panels being the most suitable to display both formats. They could have gone 720p for HDTV and 720p and 1440p for disks, at least that would have got rid of the interpolation issues.

Wayne Morellini · August 7th, 2007, 03:13 PM

I am going to be fair to this camera, even though my experience with Kodak support trying to find out information, is pitiful.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...2&changemode=1

The news, apparently, looks all good, even though I am yet to complete the download of the video footage. Video mode is said to be 1 Mega byte persecond.

However, I don't believe in supporting support departments like this, and do not recommend buying it instead of an camera that is as good with better support.

Wayne Morellini · August 8th, 2007, 03:01 AM

Seen the footage, flashing pixels from interpolation and dark pixel noise. This stuff doesn't help compression much.

Haven't done detailed examination yet of frames, but seems to have blocking, stepping in tonality uncertain circumstances,and don't know about the diagonal bug. I have been told by an professional, the diagonal bug, is due to the sensors internal debayering, and thatch pattern also because of an filter. But seems to be predictable and removable to me, hopefully manufacturers will be able to remove it by in camera processing (Sanyo HD2 seems to have done this) and boost compression performance just that little bit more.

Color, somewhat like the Aiptek, probably is better in many ways, given the higher data rate. The stills look nice, but bright colors look extra bright. latitude looks better to me than the Sanyo HD1, but from the porch footage it still looks like ti needs more. It is hard to tell, cannot get it to play back properly on my current standing machine, but it seemed to have noise in the sky of the bright scene. I prefer to see zero noise in an daylight scene, even in an 60watt bulb scene. Might seem an bit strict, but I prefer to see no noise in an 15watt bulb scene on more expensive cameras, and on an professional camera, not in an candlelit scene.

For the price the footage looks good, but well have to see more latter.

Chuck Fadely · August 8th, 2007, 06:45 PM

Got my Z1275 today. Still pix are pretty good, much less noise than I'd expect from a 12mp camera.

AA alkaline batteries last about 15 minutes and it gets hot to hold.

The 720p video is Quicktime MPEG4 at 30.97 fps (!!!! not a typo!) with 16khz mono audio. Render that!

There is no way to turn off image stabilization that I can find, which ruins every shot I've tried. If you're holding it steady on a tripod, it tracks subject movement, making the background jump around like water on a hot skillet.

Image quality is not bad but the digital stabilization is fatal. I've shot about 1/2 hour of video so far, handheld and tripod, near and far, and not a single second is useable.

Wayne Morellini · August 9th, 2007, 08:35 AM

Sounds weird, I thought they advertised it as 30fps. This mismatch would cause an blended frame, or jump every 31 frames. You are sure, taking out the sound data-rate?

The tracking of subjects would explain the comments about it not seeming to have effective stabilisation, if it seems to be jumping randomly chasing subjects. Hopefully it can be removed.

OK, down tot he serious business, what are the compression data rates? Does it only do 30fps, can't be set to Australia PAL 25fps? The HD component output, is it active during recording, or in standby? In recording or standby, does it output uncompressed video?

Thanks Chuck

Wayne.

Chuck Fadely · August 9th, 2007, 06:39 PM

It shows up in Final Cut as 30.97 fps; Quicktime says its 30.8 fps.

It only comes with a composite out cable with no mention of HD out anywhere on the camera or in the manual.

Haven't tried to see if it's live out. You can set it to PAL AV out in the menus but I haven't tested to see if it records at that setting.

It uses about one megabyte of disk space per second.

Wayne Morellini · August 11th, 2007, 10:11 PM

I thought I read that you could get component cables for it, maybe different docking station? Pity.

August 1st, 2007, 01:08 AM	#1
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Even Kodak is doing 720p digital still camera http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQueri...q-locale=en_US http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQueri...q-locale=en_US What is taking video manufacturers so long to offer an descent low end 720p camera?

August 1st, 2007, 02:09 AM	#2
Jamie Allan Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Notts, UK Posts: 101	The standard trickle of technology down to consumers ? Decent low-end hardware is always last to come through...

August 2nd, 2007, 08:08 PM	#3
Xavier Etown Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 71	This camera appears to be better than the Canon TX1. But a NiMH battery instead of lithium??? I'll wait and see what comes out near Christmas.

August 3rd, 2007, 10:56 AM	#4
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I tired to get max data rates of the camera out of Kodak support, but kept getting the wrong information. So, the only information I appear to have is that it does 80 minutes at 2 GB, which works out to be around 3.33Mb/s. Hopefully not, that is quiet low. 9mb/s would be better, and 19mb/s better again. It has no HDMI to take advantage of the Intensity capture cards. So, if this information is true, it is an novelty for an number of us. Seriously, there should be much better 720p cameras. Mpeg2 HDTV channels may not deliver an suitable 1080i picture, and most HDTV's are built more to suite 720p. 1080i is an waste of time for HDTV, and 720p25/30/50/60 can deliver better in HDTV. For future use, digital cinema, disks and TV, 720p50 offers an nicer practical low end work flow option than 1080p50. It is only in HD disks that it really can deliver. Which brings us to 8Mp SHDTV Panels being the most suitable to display both formats. They could have gone 720p for HDTV and 720p and 1440p for disks, at least that would have got rid of the interpolation issues.

August 7th, 2007, 03:13 PM	#5
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I am going to be fair to this camera, even though my experience with Kodak support trying to find out information, is pitiful. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...2&changemode=1 The news, apparently, looks all good, even though I am yet to complete the download of the video footage. Video mode is said to be 1 Mega byte persecond. However, I don't believe in supporting support departments like this, and do not recommend buying it instead of an camera that is as good with better support.

August 8th, 2007, 03:01 AM	#6
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Seen the footage, flashing pixels from interpolation and dark pixel noise. This stuff doesn't help compression much. Haven't done detailed examination yet of frames, but seems to have blocking, stepping in tonality uncertain circumstances,and don't know about the diagonal bug. I have been told by an professional, the diagonal bug, is due to the sensors internal debayering, and thatch pattern also because of an filter. But seems to be predictable and removable to me, hopefully manufacturers will be able to remove it by in camera processing (Sanyo HD2 seems to have done this) and boost compression performance just that little bit more. Color, somewhat like the Aiptek, probably is better in many ways, given the higher data rate. The stills look nice, but bright colors look extra bright. latitude looks better to me than the Sanyo HD1, but from the porch footage it still looks like ti needs more. It is hard to tell, cannot get it to play back properly on my current standing machine, but it seemed to have noise in the sky of the bright scene. I prefer to see zero noise in an daylight scene, even in an 60watt bulb scene. Might seem an bit strict, but I prefer to see no noise in an 15watt bulb scene on more expensive cameras, and on an professional camera, not in an candlelit scene. For the price the footage looks good, but well have to see more latter.

August 8th, 2007, 06:45 PM	#7
Chuck Fadely Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: United States Posts: 306	Got my Z1275 today. Still pix are pretty good, much less noise than I'd expect from a 12mp camera. AA alkaline batteries last about 15 minutes and it gets hot to hold. The 720p video is Quicktime MPEG4 at 30.97 fps (!!!! not a typo!) with 16khz mono audio. Render that! There is no way to turn off image stabilization that I can find, which ruins every shot I've tried. If you're holding it steady on a tripod, it tracks subject movement, making the background jump around like water on a hot skillet. Image quality is not bad but the digital stabilization is fatal. I've shot about 1/2 hour of video so far, handheld and tripod, near and far, and not a single second is useable.

August 9th, 2007, 08:35 AM	#8
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Sounds weird, I thought they advertised it as 30fps. This mismatch would cause an blended frame, or jump every 31 frames. You are sure, taking out the sound data-rate? The tracking of subjects would explain the comments about it not seeming to have effective stabilisation, if it seems to be jumping randomly chasing subjects. Hopefully it can be removed. OK, down tot he serious business, what are the compression data rates? Does it only do 30fps, can't be set to Australia PAL 25fps? The HD component output, is it active during recording, or in standby? In recording or standby, does it output uncompressed video? Thanks Chuck Wayne.

August 9th, 2007, 06:39 PM	#9
Chuck Fadely Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: United States Posts: 306	It shows up in Final Cut as 30.97 fps; Quicktime says its 30.8 fps. It only comes with a composite out cable with no mention of HD out anywhere on the camera or in the manual. Haven't tried to see if it's live out. You can set it to PAL AV out in the menus but I haven't tested to see if it records at that setting. It uses about one megabyte of disk space per second.

August 11th, 2007, 10:11 PM	#10
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I thought I read that you could get component cables for it, maybe different docking station? Pity.