Great greenscreen paint from Home Depot

Ben Syverson · December 10th, 2007, 11:49 PM

Even lighting won't help you much if you're photographing against a white wall. Screen color is the other half of the story. But hey, don't listen to me -- I just write the software. :)

Read through this thread for an explanation about why the color of the screen is important:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109135

When the dust settles on my tests, I'm going to make a VERY extensive series of podcasts about greenscreen. Probably in the 2-3 hour range...

Benjamin Hill · December 11th, 2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Syverson

Even lighting won't help you much if you're photographing against a white wall. Screen color is the other half of the story. But hey, don't listen to me -- I just write the software. :)

Read through this thread for an explanation about why the color of the screen is important:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109135

When the dust settles on my tests, I'm going to make a VERY extensive series of podcasts about greenscreen. Probably in the 2-3 hour range...

You referred to your own thread! Kinda like that scene in "What About Bob" when Dr. Marvin recommends his own book to the patient.

Hey, if you write software then it makes sense to obsess over green-ness to Nth level. When you write the next killer chroma key app be sure to let us all know (and I'll use it with my $10 paint)

Nate Benson · December 11th, 2007, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Syverson

Even lighting won't help you much if you're photographing against a white wall. Screen color is the other half of the story. But hey, don't listen to me -- I just write the software. :)

Read through this thread for an explanation about why the color of the screen is important:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109135

When the dust settles on my tests, I'm going to make a VERY extensive series of podcasts about greenscreen. Probably in the 2-3 hour range...

Make sure you post those podcast links when you make them. You can never know too much about greenscreening

Ben Syverson · December 11th, 2007, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Hill

Hey, if you write software then it makes sense to obsess over green-ness to Nth level. When you write the next killer chroma key app be sure to let us all know (and I'll use it with my $10 paint)

Baby steps, Bob!

Baby steps to better composites... Baby steps to better background paint...

Nick Jushchyshyn · December 11th, 2007, 11:51 PM

Ben's keyers are some of the best and fastest available and the research he's been involved with on both "whatever it takes" and "ghetto" budget studio setups has involved hundreds of people and probably thousands of hours.

I'm not affiliated with Ben and get no "kickback" of any kind from him or his products, but certainly hate to see his contributions belittled. (his software works FANTASTICLY on $10 paint BTW. :) )

That said ... the idea of testing paint chips is solid, but remember to also test with a foreground subject and a variety of camera and lighting configurations.

Background color, lighting, camera configuration and keying pipeline all work together to produce a key, and evaluating one element independent of the others is less than ideal.

Good luck
Have fun.

Ben Syverson · December 12th, 2007, 12:08 AM

Thanks Nick! You rule.

I guess my point in testing chips independent of camera setups is to establish a few "objectively" better colors, assuming a camera perfectly white-balanced to the screen lights. I mean, there are literally infinite combinations of camera, screen lights and backing color, but by properly white balancing the camera against the screen lights, you effectively create an even playing field where the same backing should photograph more or less the same by any camera.

That said, the optimal green will be different for different subjects. The hue of the green won't change, but the brightness of the green will. For example, if you're shooting a shadowy subject to composite into a dark night scene, you don't want the screen to be screaming bright. You'll want it to be at about 50% green or even lower. The reason is that a huge contrast in brightness between the screen and your subject will aggravate the sharpening filter in your camera. You'll wind up with bright edges you can't get rid of. Same thing goes for a bright subject & background, but photographed against a dark screen -- you'll get ugly dark edges.

But trust me, I have seen my fair share of really, truly terrible greenscreen plates from users. My software is pretty forgiving when it comes to screen color, but I have to say... the better the screen, the better the composite. If I can get people even 10% closer to a good screen color, I'll be very happy!

Dean Sensui · January 10th, 2008, 07:12 AM

Interesting info. Thanks for doing these basic tests.

I just recently went to Home Depot for some paint chips in an effort to find something that matches the green screen fabric from EEFX.com.

This fabric has been doing a great job of keying for me and I wanted to find a paint that might come in handy should hard set pieces need to be made to match the fabric.

With green screen every little bit helps. It has to be given a system approach: Camera setup, screen color, lighting, exposure, talent colors, placement and software.

Ben Syverson · January 12th, 2008, 01:27 PM

Dean, that's a great way to describe it -- a system approach. It's like an audio chain -- the signal is only as good as the weakest component.

Jim Ross · February 24th, 2008, 11:49 PM

So whats the word on those Podcasts Ben?
Inquiring minds want to know! I mean, it's not like you have a real job too. LOL!

I'm ready to paint! Do I hit B&H, Home Depot, or Benjamin Moore?

:-)

Jim

Steve Oakley · February 25th, 2008, 09:50 PM

so a big thanks for this tip. Rosco color is pea green. really helped on making the key extra easy on a shoot I did a few weeks ago. Not to say I don't shoot easy keys, but this was easier.

Ken Wozniak · February 26th, 2008, 02:23 PM

I was wondering if this method would work to find a decent green paint:

1. Get every green color chip I can from paint shop.
2. Put all chips on the wall, creating a chart, and light as evenly as possible.
3. White balance camera.
4. Shoot a few frames of the color chart with my camcorder.
5. Import footage into NLE and analyze colors with the color picker until I find one that is as close to pure green as possible.

In my twisted mind, this would allow me to select a green that is as close as possible to what the camera sees as pure green.

Or am I full of it?

Steve Oakley · February 26th, 2008, 02:28 PM

already been done

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109612

Dean Sensui · February 26th, 2008, 02:30 PM

Makes sense to me.

Then again, maybe all of us have warped minds. :-)

Personally I'd want to find a paint that matches the green screen fabric I got from EEFX.com. That way set pieces and the fabric will key the same or close to the same.

Also, the software used to pull the key is key -- pun intended. Primatte has a nice way of being able to identify what's "green" and "not green". I actually was able to key someone wearing a shirt that contained green elements.

Ken Wozniak · February 27th, 2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Oakley

already been done

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109612

Doh! I read through 90% of the thread, but missed the part where they talked about analyzing the colors in photoshop. I thought some hi-tech analyzer was being used to measure green. Thanks.

Chris Barcellos · February 27th, 2008, 11:13 AM

I am working on a very low budjet project this spring, and from this thread have developed a plan for some green screen shooting to be done in my garage.

I bought a 12x15 piece of canvas for about $25 from Home Depot, and bought the Sparkling Apple paint. We will be keying with Ben's software.

I laid the canvas on the floor of my garage, and rolled paint on. I learned you need to thin it to get it on evenly and to allow it to soak in canvas. ( My garage floor now is green :))

The attached wide pic is the original set up I tried. I was lighting from above with two work lights mounted on garage ceiling. Since then I rigged flourescents work lights to light from the side, for softer light.

Comments and recommendation welcome to improve this set up.

And these questions:

1. Shooting everything with HV20, 1/48. Will there be issues with mix of flourescent and incadescent lighting ?

2. What lighting to use to get an evenly lit backround.

December 11th, 2007, 11:51 PM	#20
Nick Jushchyshyn Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA Posts: 548	Ben's keyers are some of the best and fastest available and the research he's been involved with on both "whatever it takes" and "ghetto" budget studio setups has involved hundreds of people and probably thousands of hours. I'm not affiliated with Ben and get no "kickback" of any kind from him or his products, but certainly hate to see his contributions belittled. (his software works FANTASTICLY on $10 paint BTW. :) ) That said ... the idea of testing paint chips is solid, but remember to also test with a foreground subject and a variety of camera and lighting configurations. Background color, lighting, camera configuration and keying pipeline all work together to produce a key, and evaluating one element independent of the others is less than ideal. Good luck Have fun. __________________ Nick Jushchyshyn Matchmoving, Compositing, TD imdb

January 10th, 2008, 07:12 AM	#22
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Interesting info. Thanks for doing these basic tests. I just recently went to Home Depot for some paint chips in an effort to find something that matches the green screen fabric from EEFX.com. This fabric has been doing a great job of keying for me and I wanted to find a paint that might come in handy should hard set pieces need to be made to match the fabric. With green screen every little bit helps. It has to be given a system approach: Camera setup, screen color, lighting, exposure, talent colors, placement and software. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

February 26th, 2008, 02:23 PM	#26
Ken Wozniak Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Bend, IN Posts: 179	Will this work? I was wondering if this method would work to find a decent green paint: 1. Get every green color chip I can from paint shop. 2. Put all chips on the wall, creating a chart, and light as evenly as possible. 3. White balance camera. 4. Shoot a few frames of the color chart with my camcorder. 5. Import footage into NLE and analyze colors with the color picker until I find one that is as close to pure green as possible. In my twisted mind, this would allow me to select a green that is as close as possible to what the camera sees as pure green. Or am I full of it? __________________ Woz

February 26th, 2008, 02:30 PM	#28
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Makes sense to me. Then again, maybe all of us have warped minds. :-) Personally I'd want to find a paint that matches the green screen fabric I got from EEFX.com. That way set pieces and the fabric will key the same or close to the same. Also, the software used to pull the key is key -- pun intended. Primatte has a nice way of being able to identify what's "green" and "not green". I actually was able to key someone wearing a shirt that contained green elements. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

February 27th, 2008, 11:13 AM	#30
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I am working on a very low budjet project this spring, and from this thread have developed a plan for some green screen shooting to be done in my garage. I bought a 12x15 piece of canvas for about $25 from Home Depot, and bought the Sparkling Apple paint. We will be keying with Ben's software. I laid the canvas on the floor of my garage, and rolled paint on. I learned you need to thin it to get it on evenly and to allow it to soak in canvas. ( My garage floor now is green :)) The attached wide pic is the original set up I tried. I was lighting from above with two work lights mounted on garage ceiling. Since then I rigged flourescents work lights to light from the side, for softer light. Comments and recommendation welcome to improve this set up. And these questions: 1. Shooting everything with HV20, 1/48. Will there be issues with mix of flourescent and incadescent lighting ? 2. What lighting to use to get an evenly lit backround. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

December 10th, 2007, 11:49 PM	#16
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Even lighting won't help you much if you're photographing against a white wall. Screen color is the other half of the story. But hey, don't listen to me -- I just write the software. :) Read through this thread for an explanation about why the color of the screen is important: http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109135 When the dust settles on my tests, I'm going to make a VERY extensive series of podcasts about greenscreen. Probably in the 2-3 hour range...

December 12th, 2007, 12:08 AM	#21
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Thanks Nick! You rule. I guess my point in testing chips independent of camera setups is to establish a few "objectively" better colors, assuming a camera perfectly white-balanced to the screen lights. I mean, there are literally infinite combinations of camera, screen lights and backing color, but by properly white balancing the camera against the screen lights, you effectively create an even playing field where the same backing should photograph more or less the same by any camera. That said, the optimal green will be different for different subjects. The hue of the green won't change, but the brightness of the green will. For example, if you're shooting a shadowy subject to composite into a dark night scene, you don't want the screen to be screaming bright. You'll want it to be at about 50% green or even lower. The reason is that a huge contrast in brightness between the screen and your subject will aggravate the sharpening filter in your camera. You'll wind up with bright edges you can't get rid of. Same thing goes for a bright subject & background, but photographed against a dark screen -- you'll get ugly dark edges. But trust me, I have seen my fair share of really, truly terrible greenscreen plates from users. My software is pretty forgiving when it comes to screen color, but I have to say... the better the screen, the better the composite. If I can get people even 10% closer to a good screen color, I'll be very happy!

January 12th, 2008, 01:27 PM	#23
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Dean, that's a great way to describe it -- a system approach. It's like an audio chain -- the signal is only as good as the weakest component.

February 24th, 2008, 11:49 PM	#24
Jim Ross Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 54	So whats the word on those Podcasts Ben? Inquiring minds want to know! I mean, it's not like you have a real job too. LOL! I'm ready to paint! Do I hit B&H, Home Depot, or Benjamin Moore? :-) Jim

February 25th, 2008, 09:50 PM	#25
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	so a big thanks for this tip. Rosco color is pea green. really helped on making the key extra easy on a shoot I did a few weeks ago. Not to say I don't shoot easy keys, but this was easier.

February 26th, 2008, 02:28 PM	#27
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	already been done http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109612