Frame Lag

Mat Thompson · May 24th, 2014, 08:25 AM

Hi guys

I'm experiencing a frame lag using this combo.

At 24frms the situation is very bad at 30frms annoying and in high speed (240frms) mode is virtually gone so it definately has a relationship with frame rate.

When then using an EVF from the Ody output I'm seeing either the same frame lag or maybe even slightly more.

This makes me uncomortable in operating for what will be standard frame rate of 25.

Are there any tips/tricks to help this issue?

Thanks
Mat

Daniel Epstein · May 24th, 2014, 09:07 AM

Hey Mat,
One of the issues with the FS700 is the output on the camera is post processing so there is a lag built in to what you are seeing anyway. This is evident even when using the viewfinder. Probably saves money as the camera doesn't create different outputs. Going to the Odyssey may actually increase this or make it more obvious to you. This is one of the problems with all of this digital processing going on.

Mat Thompson · May 24th, 2014, 10:12 AM

Hi Daniel
Thanks for your response!
So are you saying this cannot be rectified or improved. A firmware upgrade to the Fs700 maybe ?

I'm going to see how I feel when its shot in anger but this could be a deal breaker on buying more of these kits !

Mat

Dave Sperling · May 24th, 2014, 12:10 PM

One of the companies I shoot for has a couple of FS700's, and I've always had issues with the FS700 delay on the output, particularly when going to an HDMI EVF or external monitor. If I try to do a focus pull watching the monitor, I always get screwed up because if I stop pulling when what I see is sharp, the delay means that I'm actually pulling past my focus point.
In my mind I always thought it had something to do with the fact that the 4K sensor was being de-bayered and downressed, and this was taking time.
I'm wondering if it would be better on the odyssey taking the 4Kraw-to-HD record option?

Sami Sanpakkila · May 25th, 2014, 03:25 AM

There's a 2-3 frame lag in the FS700 viewfinder and SDI output. The Odyssey 7Q doesn't add any lag when used via SDI.

The HDMI output on the FS700 adds a further 2-3 frames of lag resulting in total of 4-6 frames of lag. It's absolutely impossible to shoot handheld.

I held from buying an HDMI EVF because of this lag but found the Cineroid EVF that works via SDI. That's something I feel comfortable working with.

Dan Keaton · May 25th, 2014, 07:11 AM

Dear Friends,

I was checking this yesterday.

In the few modes that I tested, I found that the Odyssey7Q monitor seemed to be in sync with the FS700 viewfinder, confirming what Sami posted.

Respectfully,

Mat Thompson · May 25th, 2014, 09:50 AM

Hi Dan
I would be interested in hearing how you tested this and the frame rates you were using. I am definitely seeing a difference in everything other than the high speed frame rate. If you do a whip pan it is very obvious.
Mat

Mat Thompson · May 27th, 2014, 08:06 AM

Hi again Dan

What is even more obvious than the picture is if you monitor audio from the Odyssey. It shows the lag very well.

Is this something that can be solved ?

If this problem is intrinsic to the FS700 and can't be solved by Sony (or yourselves) it should really be stated by both parties as its a basic functional requirement to have immediate monitoring of your picture.

I can only remove the lag by going to higher frame rates.

Mar

Dave Sperling · May 27th, 2014, 10:22 AM

The audio should remain in sync with the picture. Thus if the picture is delayed coming out of the camera the audio should be as well (so it will be recorded in sync by an external recorder.)
My impression from doing a number of jobs with the FS700 is that the output delay is a camera issue, not a C-D issue. When we do FS700 shoots and there are clients or agency watching a monitor, we feed them audio through the HD-SDI rather than using a comtec system from the audio guy - and put them in a different room - that way they don't experience trying to watch the monitor to live audio that is several frames in advance of the picture. It's a PITA, but seems to be one of the tradeoffs for the lower price of the FS700 compared to the F5 or F55 or C500, etc...

Mat Thompson · May 27th, 2014, 10:55 AM

Hi David
I didn't say the sync was out just that by listening to the feed from the Ody audio you can hear the lag time.

I'm also not implying there is anything wrong with Odyssey BUT it has been developed in tandem with the Sony Fs700 and this should be noted by both Sony and Convergent in my opinion. Especially when you pay a substantial top-up for the functionality!

I'd like to hear what Dan thinks about this and any conversations about this that have come up with Sony? There surely has to have been some dialogue.

I will also ask Sony about the issue.

Mat

Daniel Epstein · May 27th, 2014, 01:41 PM

Hey Mat,
Good luck talking to Sony about this. I don't think they have come up with a solution with this model. It pretty much is a case of buyer beware. I haven't seen any camera manufacturer mention this even though some of their cameras have this. Of course CD should be aware of this but it probably only warrants a small note as they can't change the source you are feeding the Odyssey.

May 24th, 2014, 08:25 AM	#1
Mat Thompson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kent UK Posts: 1,397	Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? Hi guys I'm experiencing a frame lag using this combo. At 24frms the situation is very bad at 30frms annoying and in high speed (240frms) mode is virtually gone so it definately has a relationship with frame rate. When then using an EVF from the Ody output I'm seeing either the same frame lag or maybe even slightly more. This makes me uncomortable in operating for what will be standard frame rate of 25. Are there any tips/tricks to help this issue? Thanks Mat

May 24th, 2014, 09:07 AM	#2
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? Hey Mat, One of the issues with the FS700 is the output on the camera is post processing so there is a lag built in to what you are seeing anyway. This is evident even when using the viewfinder. Probably saves money as the camera doesn't create different outputs. Going to the Odyssey may actually increase this or make it more obvious to you. This is one of the problems with all of this digital processing going on.

May 24th, 2014, 10:12 AM	#3
Mat Thompson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kent UK Posts: 1,397	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? Hi Daniel Thanks for your response! So are you saying this cannot be rectified or improved. A firmware upgrade to the Fs700 maybe ? I'm going to see how I feel when its shot in anger but this could be a deal breaker on buying more of these kits ! Mat

May 24th, 2014, 12:10 PM	#4
Dave Sperling Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Tinton Falls, NJ Posts: 780	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? One of the companies I shoot for has a couple of FS700's, and I've always had issues with the FS700 delay on the output, particularly when going to an HDMI EVF or external monitor. If I try to do a focus pull watching the monitor, I always get screwed up because if I stop pulling when what I see is sharp, the delay means that I'm actually pulling past my focus point. In my mind I always thought it had something to do with the fact that the 4K sensor was being de-bayered and downressed, and this was taking time. I'm wondering if it would be better on the odyssey taking the 4Kraw-to-HD record option?

May 25th, 2014, 03:25 AM	#5
Sami Sanpakkila Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Finland Posts: 317	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? There's a 2-3 frame lag in the FS700 viewfinder and SDI output. The Odyssey 7Q doesn't add any lag when used via SDI. The HDMI output on the FS700 adds a further 2-3 frames of lag resulting in total of 4-6 frames of lag. It's absolutely impossible to shoot handheld. I held from buying an HDMI EVF because of this lag but found the Cineroid EVF that works via SDI. That's something I feel comfortable working with. __________________ www.samisanpakkila.com www.vimeo.com/samisanpakkila

May 25th, 2014, 07:11 AM	#6
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? Dear Friends, I was checking this yesterday. In the few modes that I tested, I found that the Odyssey7Q monitor seemed to be in sync with the FS700 viewfinder, confirming what Sami posted. Respectfully, __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

May 25th, 2014, 09:50 AM	#7
Mat Thompson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kent UK Posts: 1,397	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? Hi Dan I would be interested in hearing how you tested this and the frame rates you were using. I am definitely seeing a difference in everything other than the high speed frame rate. If you do a whip pan it is very obvious. Mat

May 27th, 2014, 08:06 AM	#8
Mat Thompson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kent UK Posts: 1,397	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? Hi again Dan What is even more obvious than the picture is if you monitor audio from the Odyssey. It shows the lag very well. Is this something that can be solved ? If this problem is intrinsic to the FS700 and can't be solved by Sony (or yourselves) it should really be stated by both parties as its a basic functional requirement to have immediate monitoring of your picture. I can only remove the lag by going to higher frame rates. Mar

May 27th, 2014, 10:22 AM	#9
Dave Sperling Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Tinton Falls, NJ Posts: 780	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? The audio should remain in sync with the picture. Thus if the picture is delayed coming out of the camera the audio should be as well (so it will be recorded in sync by an external recorder.) My impression from doing a number of jobs with the FS700 is that the output delay is a camera issue, not a C-D issue. When we do FS700 shoots and there are clients or agency watching a monitor, we feed them audio through the HD-SDI rather than using a comtec system from the audio guy - and put them in a different room - that way they don't experience trying to watch the monitor to live audio that is several frames in advance of the picture. It's a PITA, but seems to be one of the tradeoffs for the lower price of the FS700 compared to the F5 or F55 or C500, etc...

May 27th, 2014, 10:55 AM	#10
Mat Thompson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kent UK Posts: 1,397	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? Hi David I didn't say the sync was out just that by listening to the feed from the Ody audio you can hear the lag time. I'm also not implying there is anything wrong with Odyssey BUT it has been developed in tandem with the Sony Fs700 and this should be noted by both Sony and Convergent in my opinion. Especially when you pay a substantial top-up for the functionality! I'd like to hear what Dan thinks about this and any conversations about this that have come up with Sony? There surely has to have been some dialogue. I will also ask Sony about the issue. Mat

May 27th, 2014, 01:41 PM	#11
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	Re: Frame Lag - FS700/Odyssey ? Hey Mat, Good luck talking to Sony about this. I don't think they have come up with a solution with this model. It pretty much is a case of buyer beware. I haven't seen any camera manufacturer mention this even though some of their cameras have this. Of course CD should be aware of this but it probably only warrants a small note as they can't change the source you are feeding the Odyssey.