Gemini vs Cinedeck

[Ed David]

Hi guys

Whats the benefit of owning the Gemini vs the Cinedeck besides cost, size and power consumption?
Looking into both as possible high end options of tricking out the Sony F3 with s log as well as possibly using this on shoots with the Alexa.

Thanks!

[Mark Job]

Hi Ed:
Hopefully Aaron Newsome will respond to this thread as well, since he actually owns a Cinedeck Extreme as well as a Flash XDR like myself. The Cinedeck is about $12,800.00 plus Dollars US for both the full uncompressed and 2K options. The Gemini is obviously much less expensive. Both devices are 10 bit uncompressed recorders, but the Cinedeck also offers native compressed recording.(Avid DNxHD, Cineform, QuickTime). The Gemini is strictly an uncompressed recorder (Which I think is the better way to go). Want to edit in compressed codec ? - Then playout in realtime into either FCP 7.x with an Aja I/O HD, or an Avid Media Composer with an Adrenaline HD in realtime capture to DNxHD 175 X or 220 X ( X=10 Bit) and post away. The Cinedeck has a much more extensive hardware I/O with separate TC I/O via RS-422 and LTC, with total Analogue component I/O, while the Gemini has separate TC in/out via LTC LEMO connector.(Way to go Convergent Design !) The Gemini also is smaller, lighter, and draws much less current than a Cinedeck. The Cinedeck is basically a miniature, but full fledged PC built into a small monitor running on Windows 7 64 bit now (ver 2.5). In theory, you can plug a keyboard, mouse and external monitor into the Cinedeck and edit with Avid Media Composer in it (If Cinedeck allows you to add applications during bootup ?)

I'm critical of both the Cinedeck & Gemini for the same reason I was for the Nano & the XDR - Not enough bits ! If you record in 4:4:4, then do NOT record in 10 bits ! 4:4:4 needs 12 bits minimum to take advantage of this level of color space and precision - even 14 or 16 bits is more realistic for 4:4:4 recording.
Now the S-Log feature does go one heck of a long way into bending the 4:4:4 gammit of data into a 10 bit box, but it's too much of a compromise in my opinion. Even so, I would not hesitate in recommending the Gemini for production, since the pictures look beautiful, the unit is affordable for 4:4:4 recording (The cheapest ever !). I consider the S-Log with an F3 in 4:4:4 a very good compromise with little noticeable color information loss. The Gemini is what the Flash XDR could have been in that it is also a no-compromise 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed broadcast deck and player which is P E R F E C T for all commercial TV production. I cannot see in any way how the Gemini could be improved upon for standard commercial TV production.

Sony has introduced two new solid state digital HD recorders (SR-R1 & SR-R4) The Sony SR R1 is the best recorder for your purposes ever ! Ever ! However, this baby is crazy, crazy expensive. The SR R1 records in Simple Studio Profile MPEG 4 (SStP Mp4) Which is none other than Sony HDCAM SR codec.

The SR R1 records in 4:2:2 10 bit 220, 440, 880, and Uncompressed YUV or RGB. The SR R1 records in 4:4:4 12 bit RGB, or full uncompressed 4:4:4 in 12, 14, or 16 bit RAW ! The SR R1 is for any Sony or other make of HD Camera, while the SR R4 is designed for the back of the new Sony F 65 Digital spinning shutter CMOS cine camera. Overall I think the Gemini wins because of price and current consumption. The Gemini does get you into the world of 4:4:4 and uncompressed recording, which is a quantum leap from MPEG -2 @ 8 bits !

Mark Job

[Alister Chapman]

On top of size, weight and cost all of which are considerably more than the Gemini, add noise, and power consumption which are also more than the Gemini.

The Cinedeck's pro's are a wide range of codecs, including ProRes, Cineform and Avid DNxHD.

Frankly I think they are different devices for different applications. The Cinedeck really is a bit of a brick and in many respects behaves like a small computer in a compact box. It can also convert frame sizes and frame rates and do up/down SD/HD conversions. As such this makes it more suitable for studio or video village applications. The ability to record in a range of codecs is going to be important for some people, but it's not a device you want attached to the back of a handheld camera.

[Andrew Stone]

What is the weight of the Cinedeck in a usable form?

[Alister Chapman]

The Cinedeck is 4lbs (1.8kg) plus a V-lock or AB battery which will add another 3lbs (1.2kg) typically, so all up 7 to 8 lbs or a around 4kg.

The Gemini is 1.5lb (680g) will run of a Swit EX battery on an F3 or a small camcorder battery like a Sony L series weighing perhaps 0.4 lb (200g) so all up around 2 lbs or 900g.

The Sound Devices PIX 240 is pretty chunky too at 3 lb 10 ounces (1.8 kg) with a pair of L type batteries.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Ed,

I wanted to wait until others replied before I posted my comments.

I have not done an exhaustive comparison between the two products, nor do I want to say anything negative about the CineDeck.

The following are some of the strengths of the Gemini 4:4:4:

Dedicated hardware, very fast, custom designed for the tasks at hand.
Fast boot-up time (Gemini 4:4:4 = less than 3 second boot-up, plus a few seconds for the SSD’s to be ready to record)
Great Thermal Management in the Gemini 4:4:4 (runs cool due to a low power design)
Ability to Fully Support 3D via an extra cost option
Full Support for LUTS
Ability to create two Master Recordings simultaneously
Ability to Hot Swap
Ability to Span SSD’s
Great Monitor with very wide viewing angle, high contrast and brightness
Ability to support four monitors: Internal LCD, HD-SDI Output 1 & 2, HDMI Output
Ability to apply LUTs or not to each of the monitors, allowing for a client monitor
Lower cost media (when comparing media suitable for full uncompressed recording)
Planned Support for Arriraw
Additional, exciting features are planned and scheduled to be announced in the near future

(And lower cost, size, weight, and power!)

[Ed David]

Thank you all so much for your responses.

Please don't take this in all way in a negative light - but the more I think about it, the more I really really do need to have the ability to record to a compressed codec right there right on the camera on the doc/promo shoots I do where it's a crew of three people.

This alone would justify the cost for me, the ability to get 444 and 1080p60 but with a more efficient workflow.

The Cinedeck sounds like its big, heavy, and takes a long time to boot up. But it will spit out those compressed codecs saving a significant amount of time and space issues which is the biggest concern since I only have a laptop with 500 gb internal drive.

For now, the Gemini will be something I will rent, not buy. I hope that many rental houses order it because it sounds like the best option to shoot greenscreen for the relative low price on my f3. It sounds as if I will definiately need a DIT on set to work with it as well.

I look forward to future updates from C-D.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Ed,

Stay Tuned!

[Simon Wood]

Dan; try to time your announcement on the 3rd of November; we may as well have all the big ones in one go!

[Alister Chapman]

Originally Posted by Ed David

Thank you all so much for your responses.

Please don't take this in all way in a negative light - but the more I think about it, the more I really really do need to have the ability to record to a compressed codec right there right on the camera on the doc/promo shoots I do where it's a crew of three people......

........The Cinedeck sounds like its big, heavy, and takes a long time to boot up. But it will spit out those compressed codecs saving a significant amount of time and space issues which is the biggest concern since I only have a laptop with 500 gb internal drive.

If your going to spend all that money on an F3 with external recorder, why not buy a few extra drives? Don't forget you can off load from the Gemini using the tiny supplied transfer station, encoding to the codec of your choice while you continue to shoot. For the price difference between the Gemini and Cinedeck you can buy several extra SSD's.

Even if your using the Cinedeck you are still going to want to do some backups and copies to a second drive for safety reasons.

Don't underestimate the size of the Cinedeck. You won't be sticking it on the back of the camera.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Ed,

Of course, I agree completely with Alister.

And I wish to thank Alister for pointing out the advantages of the Gemini 4:4:4.

Please expect a major announcement, from us fairly soon.

We hope we can announce it next week.