NanoFlash or CF problem? at DVinfo.net

Eric Liner · August 11th, 2011, 09:10 AM

I've experienced a strange problem that looks like a digital digital dropout or "tearing" on a few clips recorded via HD-SDI to 180mbps Long GOP on a Delkin 64GB CF card. I shot multiple cards that day and only found the problem occuring on this one... atlthough there is a chance that I may find more.

Fortunately, it never happened during anything important.

Anyone ever see anything like this with their nano?

Thanks.

Dan Keaton · August 11th, 2011, 10:16 AM

Dear Eric,

I have downloaded your file.

I am alerting our lab right now.

Andy Mangrum · August 11th, 2011, 11:29 AM

Hello Eric,

What Frame rate was this originally recorded at? also do you know if you are on the latest Firmware?

For Example recording 720p 59.94, 180Mb Long Gop MOV using firmware 1.6.248,

Also could you download and purchase KLIX? it is $20, It can test your Compact Flash cards, as well as recover all nanoFlash files, also if you can use a Mac that version is a bit more robust at the moment, to test the card the produced this error.

Digital Photo Recovery Software: Digital Picture Recovery, JPEG Recovery, Lost Picture Recovery, Recover Lost Images

If you could let us know the above information, and test the card, I can try to replicate this in our lab,

Also feel free to contact us Directly,

Support Contacts | Convergent Design

Best Regards

Eric Liner · August 11th, 2011, 11:51 AM

Hi Andy and Dan,

The Nano was recording 1080 59.94i at 180mbps Long GOP. The card was a new 64GB Delkin (UDMA 6, 66MB/sec, 450x) that Delkin just replaced for us.

I checked out the Klix website and they mention nothing about analyzing CF cards, just data/image recovery. What exactly would Klix be able to tell us about the card?

Thanks for checking in to it.

Eric

Andy Mangrum · August 11th, 2011, 12:44 PM

Hello Eric,

We have been working with ProSoft over the last 7 Months, and they have added Compact Flash Card Testing, as well as the ability to Recover all nanoFlash Files MOV, MXF, and MPG files into there existing software KLIX, but have not updated their website to reflect the Testing Capabilities.

Klix will identify if the card is causing the issue, there are many failure points that it is looking for, such as if it stops responding during a write, for an example.

Best Regards

Alan Grattan · November 23rd, 2011, 12:22 PM

Hi Eric,

I too had the exact same issue with the unit. I purchased the nano unit new together with 4 SanDisk Extreme Pro 32GB cards (nano approved). I was recording at 100mb 1080 25p. I had the four cards replaced by my reseller here in Ireland. And again on the new cards had the same issue. Like yourself, very intermittent, i.e. over a three day recording session, the breakup happened three times. (i could not pin point one card as only during the editing stage were these errors found, and the cards had been reformatted and used again). But happened on an important interview. Luckily I was also recording in camera, but then had to use that inferior format for that iv… not great!

I checked the cards via the KLIX software and three of the four cards I had failed the test. My resellers send the unit back to Convergent Design for testing. I just received an email stating that the unit was perfect and the cards must be at fault. They however did not test the cards! Here is the test from the report:

Reported Issue: Break up on play back. Cards tested and failed.

Issue Found: Unit passed all testing. HDMI ports found to be a little loose but maintained good connection.

Repairs Made: Tightened up HDMI ports

Notes: I have spent over an hour of hands on testing of record and playback. Plus I have disassembled and checked the unit for defects and that the units parts are performing as expected. The unit has had all of its functions tested and was set to record for over 12 hours. After which the footage was checked for corruption. If the cards foiled testing it is very likely this the cause of the behavior. The cards are likely dieing or counterfeit or not on the approved list. I preformed all testing with our Cf cards.

Can multiple cards die? from different batches?, surly not counterfeit, and they are on their approved list!

When the unit was away, my resellers loaned me their hire unit and four of their cards. I tested their cards and of the 4, 2 failed the klix test. They were shocked as they never had any report of clients having issues.

So I am at a loss. I cannot use this unit due to the possibility of this happening again. As the unit passed the CD examination, my resellers will not offer a refund, and I'm not sure if my reseller will carry on replacing cards!

Please let me know how you get on.

Alan

Dan Keaton · November 23rd, 2011, 01:28 PM

Dear Alan,

I am very sorry that you are having problems.

SanDisk Cards especially the SanDisk Extreme CompactFlash cards are widely used in the nanoFlash.

However, we seem to have a larger number of failures with the SanDisk cards than certain other brands.
But, in fairness, this may just reflect that more SanDisk cards are in use than other brands.

1. It appears that the SanDisk cards are the most counterfeited cards in the world.

2. It appears that there may have been a bad batch of SanDisk cards.
I first noticed this last year, and noted that the cards were purchased from a very reputable source.

We have evaluated many instances where we suspected a bad CompactFlash card.
In many cases we have proven that the cards were at fault.

When one replaces these suspect cards, the problems go away

The Klix software, a way to test CompactFlash cards, in my opinion may be used as one piece of the puzzle.

There is the possibilty that Klix may report a card as failing and it is good,
....but if the card is being used in the nanoFlash,
....and the Klix software reports that the card is bad,
........then we have two independent systems reporting that the card is bad.

Certain CompactFlash card companies work very closely with us.

They will not change the components in their line of CompactFlash cards, the controller chip, or the type of memory chips being used, without first notifying us, and allowing us to requalify the cards.

Both Delkin and Axtremex will notify us first.

SanDisk cards have a lifetime warranty, so you may wish to contact SanDisk for replacements.

Please feel free to contact me directly, any time, 24/7.

My phone numbers are listed at the bottom of this link:
(If you do not reach me on one number, please try the others).

Support | Convergent Design

Paul Knowles · February 21st, 2012, 10:10 AM

Hi Eric and Alan

Did you manage to resolve this problem?

I am having the same problem across 4 Sandisk Extreme Pro 64 GB cards.

I have had the nano swopped..... same problem.
Then symbiosis (CD's Uk dealer) lent me an Axtremex 128GB card..... same problem.
I've also tried a different EX3 using the Axtremex card.... same problem.

I'm obviously at a bit of a loss on how to proceed. This has been going since I had the nano around a year ago.

Any help of suggestions much appreciated!

Thanks
Paul

Dan Keaton · February 21st, 2012, 10:34 AM

Dear Paul,

We will be very happy to work with you to resolve this issue.

I am sending you a private email.

Dan Keaton · February 21st, 2012, 10:50 AM

Dear Paul,

I just chatted with Mike W. at our European Distributor and he was on the phone with you.

And then Mike and I just spoke on the phone about your issue.

When Mike tests your files, they play fine on his version of Final Cut Pro.

Mike is currently uploading the files so that our Lab Manager can also test the files.

I do not know why the video on your files are "tearing" on your computer, when played in Final Cut Pro, but we are attempting to get to the bottom of it.

As you stated we have swapped out your nanoFlash and lent you other cards, and Mike reports that you still have the tearing issue.

I have sent you an email with all of my phone numbers. Please feel free to call me any time 24/7.

Paul Knowles · February 21st, 2012, 11:44 AM

Hi Dan

I have just added you to my skype so we can chat about the problem.

The problem occurs in quicktime, final cut and MPEG Streamclip. I have also tried a different mac in the a local college.

Please see the attached example of the problem.

Thanks
Paul

Ron Aerts · February 26th, 2012, 07:30 AM

Must be driving you mad...
Just tinking out loud:
Did you check in different situations with different cables etc?
I remembered some issues people using cable too close to the max bandwith of SD SDI, in some situations they work and some they don't.
Or is this stupid to say?

August 11th, 2011, 10:16 AM	#2
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Dear Eric, I have downloaded your file. I am alerting our lab right now. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

August 11th, 2011, 11:29 AM	#3
Andy Mangrum Sponsor: Convergent Design Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Colorado Springs Colorado Posts: 166	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Hello Eric, What Frame rate was this originally recorded at? also do you know if you are on the latest Firmware? For Example recording 720p 59.94, 180Mb Long Gop MOV using firmware 1.6.248, Also could you download and purchase KLIX? it is $20, It can test your Compact Flash cards, as well as recover all nanoFlash files, also if you can use a Mac that version is a bit more robust at the moment, to test the card the produced this error. Digital Photo Recovery Software: Digital Picture Recovery, JPEG Recovery, Lost Picture Recovery, Recover Lost Images If you could let us know the above information, and test the card, I can try to replicate this in our lab, Also feel free to contact us Directly, Support Contacts \| Convergent Design Best Regards __________________ Andy Mangrum, Tech Support Convergent Design, Inc

August 11th, 2011, 11:51 AM	#4
Eric Liner Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Ithaca, NY Posts: 39	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Hi Andy and Dan, The Nano was recording 1080 59.94i at 180mbps Long GOP. The card was a new 64GB Delkin (UDMA 6, 66MB/sec, 450x) that Delkin just replaced for us. I checked out the Klix website and they mention nothing about analyzing CF cards, just data/image recovery. What exactly would Klix be able to tell us about the card? Thanks for checking in to it. Eric

August 11th, 2011, 12:44 PM	#5
Andy Mangrum Sponsor: Convergent Design Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Colorado Springs Colorado Posts: 166	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Hello Eric, We have been working with ProSoft over the last 7 Months, and they have added Compact Flash Card Testing, as well as the ability to Recover all nanoFlash Files MOV, MXF, and MPG files into there existing software KLIX, but have not updated their website to reflect the Testing Capabilities. Klix will identify if the card is causing the issue, there are many failure points that it is looking for, such as if it stops responding during a write, for an example. Best Regards __________________ Andy Mangrum, Tech Support Convergent Design, Inc

November 23rd, 2011, 12:22 PM	#6
Alan Grattan Tourist Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 3	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Hi Eric, I too had the exact same issue with the unit. I purchased the nano unit new together with 4 SanDisk Extreme Pro 32GB cards (nano approved). I was recording at 100mb 1080 25p. I had the four cards replaced by my reseller here in Ireland. And again on the new cards had the same issue. Like yourself, very intermittent, i.e. over a three day recording session, the breakup happened three times. (i could not pin point one card as only during the editing stage were these errors found, and the cards had been reformatted and used again). But happened on an important interview. Luckily I was also recording in camera, but then had to use that inferior format for that iv… not great! I checked the cards via the KLIX software and three of the four cards I had failed the test. My resellers send the unit back to Convergent Design for testing. I just received an email stating that the unit was perfect and the cards must be at fault. They however did not test the cards! Here is the test from the report: Reported Issue: Break up on play back. Cards tested and failed. Issue Found: Unit passed all testing. HDMI ports found to be a little loose but maintained good connection. Repairs Made: Tightened up HDMI ports Notes: I have spent over an hour of hands on testing of record and playback. Plus I have disassembled and checked the unit for defects and that the units parts are performing as expected. The unit has had all of its functions tested and was set to record for over 12 hours. After which the footage was checked for corruption. If the cards foiled testing it is very likely this the cause of the behavior. The cards are likely dieing or counterfeit or not on the approved list. I preformed all testing with our Cf cards. Can multiple cards die? from different batches?, surly not counterfeit, and they are on their approved list! When the unit was away, my resellers loaned me their hire unit and four of their cards. I tested their cards and of the 4, 2 failed the klix test. They were shocked as they never had any report of clients having issues. So I am at a loss. I cannot use this unit due to the possibility of this happening again. As the unit passed the CD examination, my resellers will not offer a refund, and I'm not sure if my reseller will carry on replacing cards! Please let me know how you get on. Alan

November 23rd, 2011, 01:28 PM	#7
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Dear Alan, I am very sorry that you are having problems. SanDisk Cards especially the SanDisk Extreme CompactFlash cards are widely used in the nanoFlash. However, we seem to have a larger number of failures with the SanDisk cards than certain other brands. But, in fairness, this may just reflect that more SanDisk cards are in use than other brands. 1. It appears that the SanDisk cards are the most counterfeited cards in the world. 2. It appears that there may have been a bad batch of SanDisk cards. I first noticed this last year, and noted that the cards were purchased from a very reputable source. We have evaluated many instances where we suspected a bad CompactFlash card. In many cases we have proven that the cards were at fault. When one replaces these suspect cards, the problems go away The Klix software, a way to test CompactFlash cards, in my opinion may be used as one piece of the puzzle. There is the possibilty that Klix may report a card as failing and it is good, ....but if the card is being used in the nanoFlash, ....and the Klix software reports that the card is bad, ........then we have two independent systems reporting that the card is bad. Certain CompactFlash card companies work very closely with us. They will not change the components in their line of CompactFlash cards, the controller chip, or the type of memory chips being used, without first notifying us, and allowing us to requalify the cards. Both Delkin and Axtremex will notify us first. SanDisk cards have a lifetime warranty, so you may wish to contact SanDisk for replacements. Please feel free to contact me directly, any time, 24/7. My phone numbers are listed at the bottom of this link: (If you do not reach me on one number, please try the others). Support \| Convergent Design __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

February 21st, 2012, 10:10 AM	#8
Paul Knowles Tourist Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Swansea, UK Posts: 2	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Hi Eric and Alan Did you manage to resolve this problem? I am having the same problem across 4 Sandisk Extreme Pro 64 GB cards. I have had the nano swopped..... same problem. Then symbiosis (CD's Uk dealer) lent me an Axtremex 128GB card..... same problem. I've also tried a different EX3 using the Axtremex card.... same problem. I'm obviously at a bit of a loss on how to proceed. This has been going since I had the nano around a year ago. Any help of suggestions much appreciated! Thanks Paul

February 21st, 2012, 10:34 AM	#9
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Dear Paul, We will be very happy to work with you to resolve this issue. I am sending you a private email. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

February 21st, 2012, 10:50 AM	#10
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Dear Paul, I just chatted with Mike W. at our European Distributor and he was on the phone with you. And then Mike and I just spoke on the phone about your issue. When Mike tests your files, they play fine on his version of Final Cut Pro. Mike is currently uploading the files so that our Lab Manager can also test the files. I do not know why the video on your files are "tearing" on your computer, when played in Final Cut Pro, but we are attempting to get to the bottom of it. As you stated we have swapped out your nanoFlash and lent you other cards, and Mike reports that you still have the tearing issue. I have sent you an email with all of my phone numbers. Please feel free to call me any time 24/7. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

February 26th, 2012, 07:30 AM	#12
Ron Aerts Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Drachten, Netherlands Posts: 179	Re: NanoFlash or CF problem? Must be driving you mad... Just tinking out loud: Did you check in different situations with different cables etc? I remembered some issues people using cable too close to the max bandwith of SD SDI, in some situations they work and some they don't. Or is this stupid to say?