.mxf Files Mishandled in Premiere CS4 CS5

[William Urschel]

PROBLEM - Attempt edit .mxf files. I have a serious and bizarre issue with BOTH Premiere CS4 and CS5, which I am posting here and several other places, in hopes that someone might provide a suggestion before I pay Adobe for their comment or laboriously and awkwardly attempt to edit with Sony Vegas Pro 8, which works fine, but with which I have no experience! To wit, I have a Sony EX1 with an attached Convergent Designs nanoFlash, and am attempting to edit .mxf data (1080x1920 30p, 100Mbps, Long GOP). I can import and edit the .mxf files quite satisfactoriy into Vegas Pro 8, but in the timeline of both Premiere Pro CS4 and CS5, BOTH the video and audio show up ONLY in the video timeline! I can edit the video OK, but any edit of audio in Premiere is totally impossible - the only way the audio can be edited is to take it into Soundbooth, clip by clip from the Premiere timeline, and then bring it back into Premiere, where it again is combined with the Video (making audio transitions, etc. impossible). I am absolutely intent upon using the Convergent Designs nanoFlash data (taken from the Sony EX1 SDI output in uncompressed 4:2:2), since the nanoFlash data is just soooooo pristine, in comparison to the usual SxS collected 35 Mbps 4:2:0 data!

Before I go further, to let you know what I am running all this on: A BOXX 4850, ASUS motherboard, CPU Intel i7 Quad Core overclocked at 4 GHz, Memory 6GB DDR 1333, Video NVIDIA Quadro CX (yes, qualified for superb performance with Premiere CS5), two hard drives, both 7,200 SATA, 250GB for programs and 500GB RAID 0 for data, OS discussed below (first, Vista Ultimate 64 bit, then WIN 7 Ultimate, 64 bit. Tests of all hardware indicate that all are functioning normally.

On a totally clean installation, I first installed Vista Ultimate 64 bit, updated, and with everything else installed and updated (including NVIDIA, audio drivers, etc.) and the Adobe Production Premium CS4. Everything I then imported and edited, except the .mxf files, operated normally with very few crashes. The MainConcept XDCAM PlugIn was installed to permit importing .mxf data into Premiere. And as noted above, both .mxf video and audio data showed up only in the video timeline.

SOOOO, I conducted another totally clean install, this time with WIN 7 Ultimate 64 bit, Adobe Production Premium CS5 (no plug-in required for high data rate .mxf files) and again all drivers installed and updated. It might be noted that Adobes' Premiere CS5 still has a serious bug even in its latest rendition, namely, at least for .mxf files, one channel of stereo audio lags the other). BUT the same issue AGAIN showed up - both video and audio show up ony in the video timeline.

Convergent Designs staff has been exemplary in providing their, as usual, exceptionally timely and knowledgeable response when I presented them with this bizarre issue - but they have no solution for me - a similar configuration (PC, windows, Adobe, etc.) operates fine on their setup! And they have provided me a high data rate long GOP nanoFlash generated test file which shows up fine on their set up, but which just exhibits the same strange behavior on my Premiere CS4 and CS5.

At present, I am able to edit test clips perfectly in Vegas Pro 8, export the file wrapped avi, coded in Adobe Media Encoder CS5, and then produce BD through Adobe Encore CS5 without a hitch - and with the nano data from the EX1 - WOW! What a comparative absence of artifacts - how sharp on the big screen - how great for blue screen, etc., etc.!

Soo, you might well ask, why don't I just use Vegas Pro 8, instead of either of the editions of Premiere? Well, I am still very slowly and laboriously learning the ins and outs of Vegas (using the excellent Editing Workshop provided by Douglas Spotted Eagle), BUT I have been using Premiere as an editor for the last thirteen years, and would like to continue to use Premiere.

If anyone out there has any suggestions as to the genesis and possible solution to my problems in attempting to utilize Premiere, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear William,

I just alerted Mr. Tommy Schell about your post.

He is reading it now and will comment as soon as possible.

We do know that CS5 has some audio issues that they are working on.

[Tommy Schell]

Hi William,

perhaps other CS4 / Main Concept plug-in / nanoFlash users who are more knowledgable can comment on this, but in our experience this combination works fine.
As we've discussed in the past, there may be something in your Windows setup or some conflicting software of some sort that is causing trouble? Your situation is puzzling.

CS5 will support our files natively without a plug-in, however Adobe is still resolving some problems with handling our audio and timecode, so no surprise there that you are having trouble.

Thanks for your complements.

Tommy Schell

[Mark Job]

Originally Posted by William Urschel

Before I go further, to let you know what I am running all this on: A BOXX 4850, ASUS motherboard, CPU Intel i7 Quad Core overclocked at 4 GHz,... Tests of all hardware indicate that all are functioning normally.

Hey Bill: I know this may come across as a bit of a stupid question, but what would happen if you took away the OC on your system and re-tested Premiere CS4 & CS5 while running your hardware at spec ?

Originally Posted by William Urschel

On a totally clean installation, I first installed Vista Ultimate 64 bit, updated, and with everything else installed and updated (including NVIDIA, audio drivers, etc.) and the Adobe Production Premium CS4. Everything I then imported and edited, except the .mxf files, operated normally with very few crashes. The MainConcept XDCAM PlugIn was installed to permit importing .mxf data into Premiere. And as noted above, both .mxf video and audio data showed up only in the video timeline.

SOOOO, I conducted another totally clean install, this time with WIN 7 Ultimate 64 bit, Adobe Production Premium CS5 (no plug-in required for high data rate .mxf files) and again all drivers installed and updated. It might be noted that Adobes' Premiere CS5 still has a serious bug even in its latest rendition, namely, at least for .mxf files, one channel of stereo audio lags the other). BUT the same issue AGAIN showed up - both video and audio show up ony in the video timeline.

...You are introducing a great number of variables and inconsistencies by switching to multiple OS's. I suggest you stick to one OS you know to be the most stable. Also, you are testing out two separate versions of Adobe Premiere here. (CS4 & CS5). You are asking for pain and suffering by doing this. Perhaps you could try the latest iteration of Premiere and stick with this only to assist in illiminating variables. As an experienced over clocker myself, I have encountered instances where the overclock was rock stable, but the editing app was not.

Originally Posted by William Urschel

At present, I am able to edit test clips perfectly in Vegas Pro 8, export the file wrapped avi, coded in Adobe Media Encoder CS5, and then produce BD through Adobe Encore CS5 without a hitch - and with the nano data from the EX1 - WOW! What a comparative absence of artifacts - how sharp on the big screen - how great for blue screen, etc., etc.!

...This could be the big message ! If you have to edit and deliver on DVD or BD, then Vegas is a killer app ! Vegas is elegant and streamlined. The problem with Premiere is you need a close set of hardware pre-requisites to make it run at spec. (And Yes I'm very critical of Adobe for not being straight about *What kind of a system you **really need to run CS5 !!) IMHO, Premiere CS5 wants an HP Z800 totally tricked out to run flawlessly. If you can stand it, then try and use Vegas.

Originally Posted by William Urschel

If anyone out there has any suggestions as to the genesis and possible solution to my problems in attempting to utilize Premiere, it would be greatly appreciated.

...I wish you the best of success with your system. I recoil at the thought of you purchasing not one, but two NLE apps which you simply can't use to edit ! Especially since neither CS4 or CS5 is inexpensive.

[William Urschel]

Mark,

Thanks much for your thoughtful and thorough comments. Since I'm
not computer literate, I would need some tech to help me re your OC
suggestion. Also, I guess I wrote tooooo much above, and to reiterate,
I ran CS4 alone on Vista, and again, on a completely new reinstall with
WIN7, CS5 ran alone, until Vegas was installed.

I may just end up learning VEGAS, and Adobe is not a total loss at all,
with AE, AME, Encore, etc.

Will be in the field the next three days.
'

[Roman Stikel]

I think all of us are still waiting for an Adobe update that will help us work with Premiere Pro CS5 without a Hitch. Any info on when this might happen. Roman

[William Urschel]

Back sooner today than I thought.

Roman, given Premiere's past performance after new versions are brought out,
a timely fix of current bugs might be a bit too much to hope for. I'm sure we have
all seen the many opinions expressed that in the Adobe family, Photoshop is the
stellar center, while Premiere is the poor stepchild - from what I've seen, I'd have
to agree, particularly with the abomination of some Premiere editions in the late
90's, though I was finally thrilled with Premiere CS4 because I could throw just
about anything at it (until the recent mxf files) and it performed just so close to
flawlessly. Sorry, way off topic, and here and other forums, I still don't have a
solution to my posted inquiry, and I'm getting close to paying a big fee to Adobe
to find out if they have any solution for me. Given that I see the same bizarre
behaviour in both Premiere CS4 and CS5, someone has suggested that after all
something may be radically wrong with my computer, including the video card,
even though all the tests I've run indicate that everything is A-OK. Would hate
to spend another couple of thousand on a video card, though it would be a cheap
investment compared to my investment of time so far in trying to identify the issue,
etc.. And there I go again, way off topic!

[Roman Stikel]

The issue is not with the computer. The issue is with Adobe CS5 and the old CS4. Don't swap or spend money yet. Also, I would ask whether someone the Nanoflah side is working on a solution.? Roman

[Dan Keaton]

Dear William,

We know for a fact that CS5 does not handle our files perfectly.

We know that they are working on a fix. We expected it to be in CS5.1.

With CS4, you need MainConcept to work with our files.

You have reinstalled your computer many times. Would you consider a clean install of CS4 + MainConcept without complicating matters by having CS5 on the same computer?

Of course, once you get CS4 + MainConcept Adobe Plug-In to work, you could backup your system and see if installing CS5 causes a problem.

Do you have MainConcept? For nanoFlash owners, the price is $199, a special deal.

[Mark Job]

Originally Posted by William Urschel

and I'm getting close to paying a big fee to Adobe to find out if they have any solution for me.

Hey Bill:
Try to resist the temptation to spend your way out of this problem. I honestly consider it will be a total tragedy if you spend even one more dime - No ! - Even one more nickel ! - On friggin Adobe Premiere for Windows ! Apart from Adobe After Effects, it's just not worth it ! Time to cut your losses and go headlong into Sony Vegas, or Avid Media Composer. I'm beginning to wonder if Adobe has forgotten that we *shouldn't have to be freaking software engineers to operate their products ! Hello Adobe ! Wake up ! Come on ! No one should be having this level of difficulty trying to edit their footage ! It's just ridiculous ! I don't care what Adobe says, you should be able to cut CD's XDR & Nano Flash clips in Premiere. Why ? because CD is using Sony XDCAM HD 4:2:2 codec, therefore, @ Long GOP. MXF @ 50 Mbps - all things should be stellar ! How about I-Frame (Intra) ?

** Another suggestion: Bill, find someone else in your neck of the woods who has another Nano or an XDR for that matter, and play out all your clips in the Nano and connect via HD-SDI to another Nano (or XDR) and try recording using I-Frame. If that doesn't work, then try Quicktime (QT) setting. Now take the newly dubbed clips into Premiere. If that doesn't work, then you know what to do with Premiere ;-) !!!

[William Urschel]

Gentlemen: Thanks much for your just posted comments.

Part of the problem I have created in this thread (the original posting) is that
I provided way too much detail, and some got lost in it. To reiterate, briefly,
here is what I said about the installations:

1) First, the program hard drive was wiped clean, and then installed was
Vista Ultimate 64 bit OS, Premiere CS4, and the appropriate MainConcept
plug in (as Dan mentioned above, for $199.00). NO installation was made of
ANYTHING from CS5 - I didn't have it yet!

2) Then the program hard drive was wiped clean again, and then installed
was WIN7 Ultimate 64 bit, and Premiere CS5. NO installation was made then,
or since of ANYTHING from CS4. After the bizarre failure again re audio
and video showing up only in the video timeline, VEGAS Pro 8 was installed.

Finally, Convergent design sent me a short mxf file produced by nanoflash which
they had run on Windows, Premiere with no issue such as I've described. When
I imported it first on Premiere CS4, and then the entirely new and separate installation
of CS5 as just described, I had the same video/audio abomination as described.

[Mark Job]

Hi Bill: Even though you wiped your HDD clean each time, you still introduced some really wide variables to the equation of your matrix. Allow me to try and explain more clearly. The difficulties in your situation may stem from the fact that not only did you change Premiere versions each time, you also changed OS versions each time. Believe me, this is a big deal. Different Windows's OS's speak to low level driver kernel in different ways. Also, are you changing back and fourth between 32 and 64 Bit OS's ? These are things to consider along the way to iliminating the variables.

What I'm suggesting is for you to pick one OS and one version of Premiere, then stick with those for the rest of your journey through until the resolution of your malfunction.

[Tim Kolb]

Originally Posted by Mark Job

I'm beginning to wonder if Adobe has forgotten that we *shouldn't have to be freaking software engineers to operate their products ! Hello Adobe ! Wake up ! Come on ! No one should be having this level of difficulty trying to edit their footage ! It's just ridiculous ! I don't care what Adobe says, you should be able to cut CD's XDR & Nano Flash clips in Premiere. Why ? because CD is using Sony XDCAM HD 4:2:2 codec, therefore, @ Long GOP. MXF @ 50 Mbps - all things should be stellar ! How about I-Frame (Intra) ?

Um...yes, well I'm certainly an advocate for Convergent Design, but I suspect if the file structures were truly identical, there likely would be no issue, correct? I just put a 50 Mbit Long GOP 422 MXF-wrapped Flash Nano clip on the timeline and it's the same thing. The audio is there, the waveform is there, the sound plays out from the timeline. The sound does not play back from the source window, or the bin.

I assume the main problem is that Bill can't trim in the source window because of this...very annoying, no doubt, but I dropped filters on the audio portion of the clip on the timeline, and made keyframed volume adjustments, I trimmed it (even using the alt key, to trim separately from the video) and it all worked... Maybe the assessment that you "can't edit the audio" in the current state means something different to you than me, but I manipulated the audio on the timeline quite easily.

Before we ask Adobe to "wake up" and rail about how they've forgotten there are customers and all that jazz...and bring up the 90s....(honestly? You have to go back a decade to find another event so you can claim a trend?) Maybe Convergent Design has some thoughts about how their files are different than camera-created XDcamHD 422? Keep in mind I get the same results when I load an AJA sequence preset into PPro where the player is now AJA's...the clip plays on the timeline, but not in the source window.

Keep in mind that I'm editing DSLR footage native on the timeline, P2, AVCHD, AVC-Intra, I handle RED in its RAW form with complete Debayer and decode controls, etc, etc... I hardly think Adobe has been sleeping.

I'd like them to come to a conclusion too, but I don't see how needing to fix this means that Adobe expects any of us to be computer programmers...that statement makes no sense to me.

They've had several updates since the software was released already.

Keep it professional.

[Mark Job]

Originally Posted by Tim Kolb

Um...yes, well I'm certainly an advocate for Convergent Design, but I suspect if the file structures were truly identical, there likely would be no issue, correct?

....We don't have enough information to make such an assessment. Is the cause of Bill's difficulties due to Premiere's inability to read XDCAM HD files in a different file structure, or is it a codec incompatibility ?

Originally Posted by Tim Kolb

I just put a 50 Mbit Long GOP 422 MXF-wrapped Flash Nano clip on the timeline and it's the same thing. The audio is there, the waveform is there, the sound plays out from the timeline. The sound does not play back from the source window, or the bin.

I assume the main problem is that Bill can't trim in the source window because of this...very annoying, no doubt, but I dropped filters on the audio portion of the clip on the timeline, and made keyframed volume adjustments, I trimmed it (even using the alt key, to trim separately from the video) and it all worked... Maybe the assessment that you "can't edit the audio" in the current state means something different to you than me, but I manipulated the audio on the timeline quite easily.

...I'm glad it works for you. Bill seems to be advocating it isn't working for him.

Originally Posted by Tim Kolb

Before we ask Adobe to "wake up" and rail about how they've forgotten there are customers and all that jazz...and bring up the 90s....

....I'm not sure where I brought up the 90's, are you ?

Originally Posted by Tim Kolb

(honestly? You have to go back a decade to find another event so you can claim a trend?)

....So now I'm going back 10 years to claim a trend am I ? OK.

Originally Posted by Tim Kolb

Maybe Convergent Design has some thoughts about how their files are different than camera-created XDcamHD 422?

...Maybe they do ? I have read several times on this forum where CD claims their Sony XDCAM HD 4:2:2 files are identical to the industry standard. I am assuming they are correct.

Originally Posted by Tim Kolb

Keep in mind I get the same results when I load an AJA sequence preset into PPro where the player is now AJA's...the clip plays on the timeline, but not in the source window.

Keep in mind that I'm editing DSLR footage native on the timeline, P2, AVCHD, AVC-Intra, I handle RED in its RAW form with complete Debayer and decode controls, etc, etc... I hardly think Adobe has been sleeping.

....Well let's take a look at that. Let's see...Avid Media Composer handles CD's Long GOP .MXF files @ 50 Mbps. I believe Sony Vegas also does. I think XDCAM HD 4:2:2 files are pretty standard fair these days.

Originally Posted by Tim Kolb

Keep it professional.

....Yes. Let's do that. This is why I suggested a possible work around four responses back. You know, I'm not in love with anyone particular NLE either. I have FCP, Avid, I've used DPS, Premiere, I'll use anything I can get my hands on actually. I've criticized them all. I've been watching Premiere's development and I am not happy with it. I think CS5 is written by lazy programmers who expect way too much CPU horsepower, way too much memory, a ridiculous freaking GPU level that's frankly unrealistic ! Yes ! This is my opinion and I stand by it. I'm concerned that end users like Bill are getting swept away in that rushing river. I'm also critical of Avid Media Composer's new specks for MC ver 5.x and the upcoming 6.x. Avid is basically saying even an HP z 400 isn't enough ! They say HP z 800 tricked to the max ! Yeah ? Well that is one truly expensive PC. I think an argument can still be made for proprietary software & hardware accelerated plugging boards - because this guarantees realtime performance even on much slower and yes - older PC's. This is of course only my opinion. Use whatever works for you ultimately.

[Steve Kalle]

William: so I understand you correctly, can you better explain what your problem is?

This statement is confusing, "but in the timeline of both Premiere Pro CS4 and CS5, BOTH the video and audio show up ONLY in the video timeline!" I don't understand why either the audio or video should be anywhere else when its in the timeline.

If you haven't already, try using just 1 hard drive. Mark is right about eliminating as many variables as possible.

One way of reverting the CPU speed back to stock is to clear the motherboards CMOS, which can be done by removing the battery for a minute - and make sure the computer has been unplugged from the wall outlet for a minute or more. Clearing the CMOS reverts the BIOS back to default settings. This will also clear your Raid settings but don't worry, it can be setup again and there is no chance of losing any data.

I would also run memtest86 Memtest86+ - Advanced Memory Diagnostic Tool to check your ram. A bad piece of ram can cause an infinite number of problems - I know thanks to a bad stick last year. You need to burn the memtest as an image (you cant just copy and paste like a data CD/DVD). I use ImgBurn - its free. And let memtest run overnight. (FYI, the Windows' memtest is junk so don't even try that)

Another idea I have is the graphics card - the way Premiere utilizes the video card is different from Vegas, which could cause the discrepancy (I think their use of OpenGL is different). You can call PNY or nvidia to help you determine if it is your Quadro.

I agree with Tim - these rants,...give me a break. I have both a tricked out Z800 (dual 6 core Xeons, FX 3800, 24GB ram) and a home-built i7 PC (running at stock speed) and have no problems with CS5 on either.