Production Company - 720p Question

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Mark Job

Hi Piotr: Yeah I thought Vegas *did in fact* handle I-Frame as well as Long GOP, but he said Vegas 8.x, so maybe that version doesn't do it. (??) Also, Dan, is it possible to add a 50 Mbps data rate setting for I-Frame recording ? I did not realize you cannot set the I-Frame data rate this low (Current lowest possible setting is 100 Mbps actually). I am assuming this is also true for the Nano Flash as well.

Exactly Mark, I-Frame only clips suffered from intermittent black frames in Vegas Pro 8.0 and up to version 9.0c. In 9.0d and e, this has been fixed - so for this particular purpose, the OP might just use the trial if he's not prepare to upgrade his 8.0 to 9.0 yet.

[Magnus Helander]

Every corner and option has been explored here in this thread, dvinfo is really something - I'm with the "get more CF cards" crowd: Transcend 400X Extreme 64GB for $237+vat - that's peanuts more or less. I'm using them and thread I started is at
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/converge...-any-good.html

$200 at Amazon

Amazon.com: Transcend 400X - 64 GB Compact Flash Memory Card TS64GCF400 (Blue): Electronics

 

Amazon.com: Transcend 400X - 64 GB Compact Flash Memory Card TS64GCF400 (Blue): Electronics

/magnus

[Nathan Mitchiner]

WOW, let me first thank each and every one of you for the influx of advice and how quickly it came in. Certainly says a lot about this forum and the quality of people and advice that are here.

I have been pretty tied up this weekend with final prep so sorry for the delay in getting back to everyone as the original poster. So, here is some more information, more decisions, and some more questions after reading everyone's posts -

- I will go with 720p60 50mbs long gop MXF

- IVegas 9.0e seems definitely worth checking out

- We are using a Barco Screen Pro switcher that is being fed from a Barco MatrixPro HD-SDI Matrix Router. The entire signal path (cameras, satellite feeds, computers, etc.) is converted to SMTPE-292 1080i HD before it gets to us. We have the production aspect of this very solid and locked in at this point and are working with a very experienced medical production crew as well. So no need to really get derailed by that aspect I suppose.

- For what it is worth, our Barco Screen Pro only has DVI-I program outs (we just don't have the adapter for HD-SDI that does 1080i on our unit) which is why we have to go 720p. We have already successfully tested the NanoFlash with the Screen Pro and have used the DVI-I program out via an DVI-HDMI adapter (all digital) to run a full size HDMI to mini size HDMI cable into the NanoFlash. There are no glitches possible while switching between sources because it is a dual channel scaling switcher that allows the output to maintain continuous sync during switching.

- Budget is set (unfortunately) from the client so all I really have at my disposal are the 2 Delkin 64gb cards and 2 - SanDisk Extreme IV 4GB cards from the Roscor rental house. However, I have done and am continuing to do some extensive testing this weekend. I have transferred from the CF USB card reader a full Delkin 64gb card in 43 minutes to my external drive twice to ensure consistancy. Though things could always be faster, things could always be slower as well. I have re-confirmed the three day schedule with my client and here it is -

7:00am - 9:20am - 140 mins
break
9:40am - 12:00pm - 140 mins
lunch
1:00pm - 3:20pm - 140 mins
break
3:40pm - 6:00pm - 140 mins

So, my plan now is to have a 64gb card in slot one and a 4gb card in slot two and record the morning session until the break. This should give me roughly 170 mins of recording time (i will be testing that this weekend) which should allow 30 extra mins for any run overs or early starts though I know I am cutting it close. Then, during the 20 min morning break, I will place a the other empty 64gb and 4gb cards into the NanoFlash to start recording the late morning session up until lunch. While that is recording, I can confidently transfer the 64gb and 4gb from the early morning session and be ready to start dumping the other 2 late morning session cards during lunch. Those cards won't even be needed until after the break in the afternoon. On paper (famous last words) and based on some initial tests, it all seems like this workflow should work. However, I am not adverse to picking up maybe another CF Card or two at a brick and mortor store here in town just in case I need to use it for some reason and if not, I can just return them unopened when I get back.

[ASIDE:] Oh, and thanks Luben Izov for the kind words and offer for the loans. Wish you were closer as well ;-)
[ASIDE:] And thanks Magnus Helander as well for the link to the significantly cheaper transcend cards. Will definitely keep those in mind for next time. My event starts Wednesday AM and I don't have time to order anything now since tomorrow is a US holiday.

Here are some general questions I have now (though I suspect these questions fall into the hot swappable functionality that is coming down the road):

1) Can I eject a CF card from Slot 1 in the NanoFlash while the NanoFlash is clearly starting to record on a Card in Slot 2?

2) Can I add a CF card to an empty Slot 2 while the NanoFlash is recording content in Slot 1?


Dan, I will also PM you just in case you still have some questions or concerns.

And please, I am still open to suggestions and advice since this is my first event with the NanoFlash. Thanks again everyone. I really really appreciate it and can't wait to use the NF in a live production. Everyone enjoy your weekend and Memorial holiday tomorrow if you are in the States.

Cheers!
Nathan

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Nathan,

It seems like you have a solid plan.

Of course, I like to be very well prepared for any problems, thus I would like for you to have additional cards.

The 4 GB cards provide approximately 10 minutes of footage at 50 Mbps. I stress "approximately", you can easily confirm this value. A 32 GB card provides approximately 80 minutes.

You seem to be ok, based on your calculations and testing, provided everything goes right.

It would certainly be nice if you have more 64 GB cards, or even 32 GB cards. If you are buying locally, just be certain that you use qualified cards.

Sorry, but the the answers to your questions 1 and 2 are no. You can not do either, and if you do, the nanoFlash will lock up, as this is unsupported at this time.

I am assuming that your production will be in Raleigh. I would love to help you with some cards, but I do not know how to get the cards to you in time.

[John Mitchell]

Hi Nathan - mate you are making a rod for your back by going down this route. You will almost certainly come to grief. You need at a minimum 2 more 64GB cards IMO. That way at your first break you can be downloading your first full card. At 50 Mb/s you use approximately 375MB per minute - so on 64Gig card you will fit approximately 160 minutes on the card (remember they measure space on these cards in decimal rather than real megabytes). 20 minutes seems like plenty of overhead so you may well fit 1 session per card which give you another whole session to dump off the nearly full card.

But remember these are your only copies of the media (unless you are backing up to another system - always wise). So when are you going to check your transfer? Are you going to copy it to a mirrored raid? What happens when something goes wrong and your attention is diverted elsewhere?

I reckon for these once only live events you need enough media to cover the days shoot. You can still be transferring media off during the day but at least you still have your originals until you get time to check and backup your media at the end of the day.

The good news is these cards are expensive to begin with but they withstand multiple re-writes and you could probably sell them on eBay at the end of the shoot for not much less than you paid for them.

I do copy off and erase cards on shoots but I use a Nexto with verify and dual record to SD cards on my camera @ 35Mb/s so I'm covered.

Just my $0.02 worth..

cheers and good luck..

[Nathan Mitchiner]

Figured I would post a follow up to the event. My first experience with the NanoFlash was a great success. I ended up picking up a couple extra CF cards and all was good. I will try to post pictures at some point.

We sent the program out from our video switcher DVI-HDMI into the NanoFlash at 720p60 with a 50mb data rate and used MXF Long GOP with Analog In audio via the stereo mini port. I have previewed all 223 files with the Sony MXF Viewer and the audio and video quality is GREAT.

I have one small but LARGE problem now. I have a clean install of Vegas 9.0e on my laptop and Vegas 8.0c on my desktop and neither one of them display the audio track when I import the MXF files. Vegas reports that there is 48khz 24bit audio there but doesn't decode it correctly so consequently the audio track is muted. I have "rebuilt peaks" several times and even erased the "sfk" audio preview files and tried reimporting. Still nothing. A complete no go for both 8.0c and 9.0e. Vegas 9.0e also introduces the single green frame at the beginning of each 3.5gb clip.

So, anyone have any suggestions on how to get either version of Vegas to interpret the audio correctly? Now, my install of Rhozet Carbon Coder reads the MXF files perfectly and I can make proxies or render them to another format very easily. Vegas can then read the audio and video of the newly transcoded files perfectly fine. However, having to transcode into something other than the original MXF files is not really ideal and I shouldn't have to spend the time or hard drive space to do that. I am open to all suggestions and can even post samples if need be. Could it be something with the 720p60 format that I used that is causing a goof up?

Thanks ahead of time!

Oh, and for what it is worth, the 50mbit 1080i60 sample LongGOP file here works perfectly fine in both Vegas versions in terms of audio and video -

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/converge...atibility.html

So, I am definitely confused.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Nathan,

If you send us a sample file, then we can test it.

I will try to send you an email with the upload details.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Nathan,

I have sent you a private message with file upload instructions.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Nathan,

Here is a direct link to the Sony XDCam Viewer Software:

Use this link to download and install the Sony XDCam Viewer Software (Plays all XDCam MXF Files, including our MXF files)

https://servicesplus.us.sony.biz/son...model=PDZ-VX10

Please download and install the above, then use it to play one of your files. You should be able to hear your audio.

I have sent you all of my phone numbers.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Nathan,

We have sent you a private message, but I am discussing it here for the benefit of others.

We tested the file that you uploaded for us.

We determined that the file was recorded at 720p60 (True 60 frames per second, not 720p59.94 as is the more typical video standard).

We were able to play the video / audio in Sony XDCAM Viewer, Edius 5, and Premiere CS4 (w/ MainConcept plug-in), but Vegas only plays video.

Evidently Vegas has limited support for true frame rates.

We did not test Final Cut Pro. Sony provides a free Plug-In for Final Cut Pro that allows MXF files to be converted to Quicktime (".MXF") files. However, we do not know if this Plug-In works with 720p60 (True) files or not.

So, there are solutions to your problems, just that Sony Vegas is not currently one that plays/edits 720p60 (True) audio at this time.

Please let us know how we may help you.

[Mark Job]

Hi Nathan:
Avid Media Composer will edit true 720 p 60 clips with .MXF file extension @ 50 Mbps without issue (Sound included).