Real Problems Using NanoFlash with Varicam in PAL-land

[Peter Corbett]

Just got my new Nanoflsh from Rick in the States. Fast delivery - no probs. But....

I'm trying to use the nano with my Varicam AJ-HDC27H camera to record 720 25P and 50P. I'm in Australia so we are 50Hz. the Varicam has to be set to 60Hz system mode for "PAL" operation. There is no 50Hz setting on the Varicams.

No matter what I try and can't get smooth frame motion and/or audio in sync. I know audio (like the video) is recorded at 60fps on the Varicam and this is pulled down to 25P. I don't know how the audio is handled. All I do know is the audio is not syncing up the picture, which incidently is not smooth either.

My settings in the Camera are;
System: 60Hz
VFR: 25P (shutter off and on at 50fps - make no difference except 50fps plays back faster)

Nanoflash
720 60P
Crank: 25P / 25P
PSF Recording "On" (or off - doesn't seem to make a difference)
Pulldown "Off" (again seems to make no difference)

If anyone can guide me through with the right settings I'd appreciate it. But I have an awful feeling that the nanoflash will not work with the Varicam for PAL users.

Thanks,
Peter

[Peter Corbett]

Sort of have 25P recording on the NanoFlash now. But there is around a 2-second lag between pressing record on the Varicam (tape rolling) and the nano starting recording. I am using 64gb Sandisk Extreme Pro cards. Is this normal?

[Dusty Powers]

Hi Peter:

Are you in a power save mode?

[Peter Corbett]

Nope. Boxes in the Power Save options are unchecked.

[Robin Probyn]

Originally Posted by Peter Corbett

Just got my new Nanoflsh from Rick in the States. Fast delivery - no probs. But....

I'm trying to use the nano with my Varicam AJ-HDC27H camera to record 720 25P and 50P. I'm in Australia so we are 50Hz. the Varicam has to be set to 60Hz system mode for "PAL" operation. There is no 50Hz setting on the Varicams.

No matter what I try and can't get smooth frame motion and/or audio in sync. I know audio (like the video) is recorded at 60fps on the Varicam and this is pulled down to 25P. I don't know how the audio is handled. All I do know is the audio is not syncing up the picture, which incidently is not smooth either.

My settings in the Camera are;
System: 60Hz
VFR: 25P (shutter off and on at 50fps - make no difference except 50fps plays back faster)

Nanoflash
720 60P
Crank: 25P / 25P
PSF Recording "On" (or off - doesn't seem to make a difference)
Pulldown "Off" (again seems to make no difference)

If anyone can guide me through with the right settings I'd appreciate it. But I have an awful feeling that the nanoflash will not work with the Varicam for PAL users.

Thanks,
Peter

Dont think you would need the crank setting on for normal recording.. its more for over crank/under crank.

[Peter Corbett]

The varicam only puts out a constant 60fps no matter what the frame selected in the camera. You have to set the outboard recorder or capture board to VFR (or "crank" on the nano) to pull the required frames out and discard the unneeded ones)

[Robin Probyn]

ah ok.. I use the nano with HDX900.. which also has a constant frame rate I believe.. but does have the 50Hz setting.. is that the reason you cant get 25p on the Nano..
The latest firmware has a 720p 25p setting..
The crank function is also new.. so dont know how people set Varicam before this function?

[Peter Corbett]

Until the crank function came in I guess you probably couldn't use a tape Varicam except with 720 60P or 30P. Your HDX900 is perfect for PAL users as it does native 50Hz. This is impossible with the Varicam. But the DVCPROHD VTRs will output correctly in 25P/50P but this negates the use of the Nano.... sigh... I'll keep working on it, but I sense a hardly-used AJ-HDC27H will be on eBay soon. The nano I'm keeping.

[Robin Probyn]

Yeah Iam shooting mostly PAL.. used the varicam a bit before I bought the HDX900.. Have only done two jobs with the HDX/Nano and recording tape same time... chews into the batteries running both.. think I need another big one as peace of mind thing.. I have 3 X IDX elite..

But nano was worked fine.. last job I copied files over to a HDD and sent it off fedex.. instead of tapes as i used to.. very simple.. havnt done any up loading to FTP sites.. seems like to would take days for sending rushes..

Good luck hopefully one of the guru,s will have a solution..

[Dean Harrington]

It took 36 hours to upload 20 gig film ... will not be doing that again.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Peter,

We are very sorry to hear of your problem.

I would like to point out that over and under-cranking is not a real solution to your problem.

With over and under-cranking, we do not record audio, thus ruling out over and under-cranking as a solution.

To the best of my knowledge, we have no features or options in the nanoFlash to convert 60 frames per second to 50 frames per second.

It is a shame that the Varicam does not allow for 50 fps.

Since the HD-SDI output of the Varicam is always 60 fps I do not see a way for us to magically create 50 frames per second and spread the audio across the 50 frames, and for everyone to be happy with the frames that we drop to create 50 frames per second.

We would have to drop every 6th frame, while spreading the audio across all of the remaining frames.

I will be checking with our engineers to see if they can think of a solution.

[Peter Corbett]

Thanks Dan,

I probably should have thought this through first. It's a great camera but tricky. If you find out anything. please let me know. Funny thing is I seem to geting sync sound via HD-SDI when crank is set to 25 / 25, but I've only tested this on sub-60sec clips.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Peter,

I have checked with our engineers.

1. We have not disabled the audio during over and under-cranking.

For many modes, the audio will not be usable, but for some it may be. This is just the nature of over and under-cranking.

2. We do not see a way to magically get a great 50 frames per second when given 60 frames per second.

3. We are all surprised that the Varicam H does not have a native 50 frames per second mode via HD-SDI, as a menu selectable option. This would have been a nice option to have. 60 frames per second is great for some parts of the world, but 50 is certainly needed in other parts.

[Peter Corbett]

Thnaks for that Dan. I'll do some more extensive tests over the weekend. The camera records at a constant 60fps. If I digitise directly from the camera into an AJA card or play off a HD1400 VTR the 25 or 50 frames are pulled off the 60fps stream and the unused frames discarded. I think the Nano in crank mode is also doing this in a way as well.

[Mark Job]

Originally Posted by Peter Corbett

Thanks Dan,

I probably should have thought this through first. It's a great camera but tricky. If you find out anything. please let me know. Funny thing is I seem to geting sync sound via HD-SDI when crank is set to 25 / 25, but I've only tested this on sub-60sec clips.

Hey Peter: No worries mate ! Shoot with your Nano Flash & Varicam in normal 60 Hz mode & post in Avid Media Composer. In AMC you can mix and match formats and convert your NTSC stuff over to 25 fps @ 50 Hz by switching in the format output tab, or using the clip convert switch in the drop down menu. Problem solved.