Second Public Beta Discussion Area

[Scott Stoneback]

I understood that the audio would be off on playback with the Nano. That doesn't concern me so much. However, I am also seeing audio sync problems on playback from the card (and copied files) on the Sony MXF viewing software, running on a PC laptop. That leads me to believe that the audio is not synched at all...

Also, it is definitely more than just two frames. By my estimate, the audio is at least 5 frames ahead of the video.

Unfortunately, I can't test with Final Cut (or Avid). Back home, I am running Final Cut 5 on a Mac, and don't have the codec support on the old version. I am not going to buy the separate codec for viewing on a Mac... (Yes, I know, I need to upgrade FCP but I don't edit on this machine, it hasn't been a problem until I got the Nano!). Besides, I am out of town on a shoot, so that is moot.

I reported this problem in a separate thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/converge...-playback.html

BTW, I am in Ft. Collins... just a bit too far away to stop by your office and pester you in person!

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Scott,

We attempt to take all reports of problems seriously.

As far as I know, you are the first to report that the audio, when played back in an editor or the Sony CLip Viewer Software, is out of sync.

Could you please share your setup and your menu settings so we can attempt to duplicate your testing conditions?

Are you using HDMI or HD-SDI?

What camera are you using?

Are you recording Long-GOP or I-Frame Only?

Are you recording MOV, MXF or MPG?

Is Prerecord buffer on?

What is the frame rate in the camera?

What frame rate shows on the front of the nanoFlash.

Is Video|Reocord PSF>Prog checked?

Is Pulldown Removal Checked?

Have you tested with a clapper, or clapping your hands?

Edit: I have found some of the above questions answered in your other thread.

Can you test using 1080i60 (59.94)? I see in your other thread that you are using 1080i50.

[Tom Roper]

1.) Dan, the link below takes you to the free Sony MXF XDCAM viewer.
https://servicesplus.us.sony.biz/son...l-PDZVX10.aspx

2.) It is the best mxf viewer I have used, but really pushes my pc resources. There is a Sony disclaimer about possible playback issues with it, depending on if directx9 is used or the alternative rendering codec, plus your graphics adapter.

3.) I am a relative newbie to the nano, and most of my time has been spent with the 1st public beta. Although I have noted an audio (out of) sync issue with the Sony MXF XDCAM viewer, I have chalked it up to limitation of my pc.

4.) When I edit and render mxf 100 mbps nano files with Sony Vegas for playback on Blu-ray, the audio from the 1st public beta has always been in sync.

5.) I have only today updated to the 2nd public beta so I can't really add anything yet, except I haven't had any issues with the way I was using the 1st public beta except as noted in 2.) and 3.) above.

I know this doesn't help much, except CD should take on the testing with the Sony MXF XDCAM viewer software and perhaps you can take a disclaimer, because I'm not sure I would trust it in the role of being the reliability standard.

If I am wrong, and there really is an audio sync problem in the edited footage, I will be deeply disappointed because that's about as important as it gets. But my limited experience so far with the 1st public beta, has been NO audio sync problem with the edited footage.

I only shoot 100 mbps MXF long GOP, and only 1080/59.94i or 1080/23.98p, E to E audio.

And that just could be the question (and possible issue) for Scott, is the audio the embedded audio or from the analog input?

Also have only used nano with the Sony PMW350.

[Scott Stoneback]

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Scott,

We attempt to take all reports of problems seriously.

As far as I know, you are the first to report that the audio, when played back in an editor or the Sony CLip Viewer Software, is out of sync.

Could you please share your setup and your menu settings so we can attempt to duplicate your testing conditions?

Can you test using 1080i60 (59.94)? I see in your other thread that you are using 1080i50.

I can't run any tests for a while. Here are the setting I am using:
Panasonic HDX900
HDSDI
1080/50Hz
50fps interlaced
MXF codec
50Mbs
Delkin 64Gb cards
Nano Firmware was 1.1.154 but on day three I switched to 1.5.126 (problem still there)

Tom, you mention that there are disclaimers about the Sony software... I am hoping the problem is with the software, obviously. I suspected that the PC I am using could be at fault but I also figured the clips would just play poorly/jittery (not out of audio sync). By the way, on the PC they do playback jittery but also with poor audio sync.

It could be that I am getting two playback systems that are not working well (the Nano and the Sony Viewer). However, since two systems are giving me equally bad playback, and I can't check on any other system, I am stuck wondering where the problem lies....

Also, Tom, I am using embedded audio out of the HD SDI feed from the camera. I am not using the Nano's cache record, just recording live stream. Also, I do not have the E to E checked, from what I can tell, E to E would not affect recording.

I will say this. If the audio is fine in edit... I will be a happy man! I agree, Tom, the Sony MXF viewer might need a closer look from CD. Your posting that the viewer has issues with playback is the first I have seen.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Tom and Scott,

We use and recommend the Sony Clip Viewer software, version 2.30. In fact, we have a link on our website so users can download this software.

While we use the Sony Clip Viewer software, we use other Non-Linear Editors (NLE's), such as Final Cut Pro, Edius, Sony Vegas, and others to check audio/video sync.

To the best of my knowledge, the Sony Clip Viewer does not allow one to see an audio waveform. For sync testing, we find the exact frame that creates the sound, then check the audio waveform. (And we use other techniques).

Tom, we recommend that you use our Second Public Beta.

Great emphasis, and lots have audio/video sync testing, has gone into our Second Public Beta, 1.5.126.

We know that in playback from the nanoFlash, the audio is two frames out. This is noted in our release notes and we are working to resolve this. But this does not affect the actual recording, or playback in a PC or a Mac.

Scott, the only thing that is unusual about your recordings, that may have gotten past our testing, is that you are recording 1080i50 and not 1080i59.94 (frequently called 1080i60)

In our lab, we have one camera that can put out 1080i50 but it does not put out audio.

Our Sony EX3 may also put out 1080i50, but I have not personally researched this.

Thus, we could have a problem with 1080i50 audio/video sync.

Please note that I do not have the list of frame rates, modes, variations, etc. that we have tested. Thus, I can not confirmed that we have, or have not tested this format, which is popular in many parts of the world.

At this moment, I have no other reports of audio/video sync issues. We have quite a few reports that the sync is fine with our 1.5.126 from various parts of the world.

As of last Wednesday, our 1.5.126 had been downloaded over 250 times. We assume that if someone does download the firmware, then they have probably updated their nanoFlash or nanoFlashes. Of these, many have performed serious audio/video sync tests with their setup. We have been seeing an average of about 100 or so downloads of 1.5.126 a day.

Scott, we will run sync tests, in our lab, as soon as possible. It will greatly help us if you can provide us with your exact setup. Please provide us all of the nanoFlash menu settings, so we can duplicate your setup. We do not have an HDX900 in our lab, but this is a very popular camera with out nanoFlash users.

Specifically Video|Record PSF>Prog, Pulldown Removal, whether you are using Embedded Audio or Analog Audio, etc. are important to us so we can duplicate your setup.

From your last post, I feel that you have

Video|Record PSF>Prog unchecked,
Pulldown Removal unchecked,
E to E unchecked

[Lance Librandi]

Hello Dan,
I have just tested my EX3 with the NanoFlash with the Second Public Beta, 1.5.126. Using a clapper Board recording 1080i/50 Mpg Long Gop /I-frame and MXF audio appears sync. I have noticed that in MXF that the end of the file is constantly Clipped with the last 10 seconds of the recoding missing. I did wait for the card activity light to turn green and then waited a further 5 sec just in case.

Doing the same exercise in Mpg 100 Mbps Long gop and I-frame everything recorded ok and no clipped files. Using a stopwatch I was able to determine that the save process clips the last 10 sec of the recording. This is not an issue for me as I only record in QT.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Lance,

Thank you for posting your results.

We spent quite a lot of time ensuring that the audio is in sync.

From your post, it appears that you attempted to duplicate Scott's setup (but using an EX3 as opposed to a HDX900), 1080i50 MXF, and found the audio, in the files, to be in sync.

I will alert our engineers to your findings about the clipping of the last 10 seconds.

I do not know how long it takes us to finish a recording. It may not be obvious, but we have to write an index to all of the frames in the clip for QT and MXF, and this can be up to 2 megabytes of data that we have to write out.

[Dave Sperling]

Scott,
If you want to do a better sync check of your footage and are using a PC, why don't you download a free demo version of Sony Vegas that runs for 30 days. Even if your processor is slow, vegas allows you to reduce the resolution on your viewing area to give you smooth playback, even on a single core chip.
In my experience, when playing back using MXF player, you may experience problems if your system doesn't meet the minimum requirements for the software - ie processor speed, RAM, HD speed and graphics card- since MXF player attempts to play back at full res. Given a fast machine and full HD monitor, the results coming off the player are stunning. I've found that running MXF Player my current notebook (Vista 32bit, Core2 2.0Ghz, nVidia card, 4GB ram, 2 years old) plays back 35Mb footage perfectly, but starts hiccupping with 50Mb 4:2:2 footage. Of course all available formats look incredible at full 1920/1080 4:2:2 using MXF viewer on my Alienware Windows7/64 desktop, with never a hiccup or lost frame.

[Lance Librandi]

Hello Dan,
I love to be able to use MPG file format for DVD/Blu-ray production on the NanoFlash but we still have a 4-5 frames audio sync issue. Do you have any idea when this may be addressed.
Many Thanks

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Lance,

I thought we had achieved audio/video sync with our MPG option.

We will check on this in our lab.

[Lance Librandi]

Dear Dan,
Thanks very much for that I have been waiting to see if the MPG sync had been fixed in this build my test last night indicated we still have a 4 frames discrepancy. I also tested CD FileConverter V1.1 which now writes to the CF cards ok but the audio on playback is also out of sync by 4 frames leading me to believe that it is a firmware issue in the NanoFlash.
Many thanks

[Scott Stoneback]

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Tom and Scott,

We use and recommend the Sony Clip Viewer software, version 2.30. In fact, we have a link on our website so users can download this software.

While we use the Sony Clip Viewer software, we use other Non-Linear Editors (NLE's), such as Final Cut Pro, Edius, Sony Vegas, and others to check audio/video sync.

To the best of my knowledge, the Sony Clip Viewer does not allow one to see an audio waveform. For sync testing, we find the exact frame that creates the sound, then check the audio waveform. (And we use other techniques).

Tom, we recommend that you use our Second Public Beta.

Great emphasis, and lots have audio/video sync testing, has gone into our Second Public Beta, 1.5.126.

We know that in playback from the nanoFlash, the audio is two frames out. This is noted in our release notes and we are working to resolve this. But this does not affect the actual recording, or playback in a PC or a Mac.

Scott, the only thing that is unusual about your recordings, that may have gotten past our testing, is that you are recording 1080i50 and not 1080i59.94 (frequently called 1080i60)

In our lab, we have one camera that can put out 1080i50 but it does not put out audio.

Our Sony EX3 may also put out 1080i50, but I have not personally researched this.

Thus, we could have a problem with 1080i50 audio/video sync.

Please note that I do not have the list of frame rates, modes, variations, etc. that we have tested. Thus, I can not confirmed that we have, or have not tested this format, which is popular in many parts of the world.

At this moment, I have no other reports of audio/video sync issues. We have quite a few reports that the sync is fine with our 1.5.126 from various parts of the world.

As of last Wednesday, our 1.5.126 had been downloaded over 250 times. We assume that if someone does download the firmware, then they have probably updated their nanoFlash or nanoFlashes. Of these, many have performed serious audio/video sync tests with their setup. We have been seeing an average of about 100 or so downloads of 1.5.126 a day.

Scott, we will run sync tests, in our lab, as soon as possible. It will greatly help us if you can provide us with your exact setup. Please provide us all of the nanoFlash menu settings, so we can duplicate your setup. We do not have an HDX900 in our lab, but this is a very popular camera with out nanoFlash users.

Specifically Video|Record PSF>Prog, Pulldown Removal, whether you are using Embedded Audio or Analog Audio, etc. are important to us so we can duplicate your setup.

From your last post, I feel that you have

Video|Record PSF>Prog unchecked,
Pulldown Removal unchecked,
E to E unchecked

Hi Dan,

Here are the specs I've been using:
Panasonic HDX900
HDSDI
1080/50Hz
50fps interlaced
MXF codec
50Mbs
Delkin 64Gb cards
Nano Firmware was 1.1.154 but on day three I switched to 1.5.126 (problem still there)
Embedded Audio
Video|Record PSF>Prog unchecked,
Pulldown Removal unchecked,
E to E unchecked

[Scott Stoneback]

Originally Posted by Lance Librandi

Hello Dan,
I have just tested my EX3 with the NanoFlash with the Second Public Beta, 1.5.126. Using a clapper Board recording 1080i/50 Mpg Long Gop /I-frame and MXF audio appears sync. I have noticed that in MXF that the end of the file is constantly Clipped with the last 10 seconds of the recoding missing. I did wait for the card activity light to turn green and then waited a further 5 sec just in case.

Doing the same exercise in Mpg 100 Mbps Long gop and I-frame everything recorded ok and no clipped files. Using a stopwatch I was able to determine that the save process clips the last 10 sec of the recording. This is not an issue for me as I only record in QT.

Holy cr*p! I have to check for that.

[Lance Librandi]

Hello Dan and fellow NanoFlash users,
Please disregard my previous post 66 I contacted a local friend who also now has a NanoFlash and conducted the same test. He found that the last the last 10 sec of the recording is not missing and he is using a PC.
Well that got me thinking what is going on so I played the MXF file back from the NanoFlash via the SDI to my monitor and sure enough everything is there and nothing is missing.
Conlusion:
I am using FCP on my Mac Pro 10.6 Snow Leopard and it would appear that during that when importing the file Quicktime X is clipping the end of the file.

My humble apologies to all.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Lance,

Thanks for the update. We appreciate you letting us know.