Shoot and archive advice, please at DVinfo.net

David Cherniack · February 5th, 2010, 01:56 PM

I could use a bit of advice from the experienced international shooters here.

I'm about to embark on a multi-month shoot with an EX1. I'll be acquiring a nanoFlash to record to. I have to deliver HD in both 50i and 59.94i flavours.

Question 1. Best acquisition format? In the past I've shot 59.94i and done expensive frame rate conversions to 50i. But with the EX1 nanoFlash combo I would think 23.976p with 2:3 pulldown to 29.97 and speed change to 25 is the way to go for space and aesthetic reasons. Does anyone think otherwise?

Question 2. I need to protection copy and edit in the room where I'll be staying. I'll take along a 5 drive port multiplier e-sata enclosure populated with large drives. I thought I'd Raid 1 a set of two drives and copy from the CompactFlash cards cards at the end of each day, that way having dual copies, one to edit with, and one to shelve as protection. But, never having used Raid 1 (I know 0 and 6) I don't know if the single drives can be addressed in Win7 independently, outside the raid set. Or alternatively, is there a good hardware/software solution for making dual copies?

Thanks for any advice,
David

Dan Keaton · February 6th, 2010, 01:44 PM

Dear David,

I hope others offer their advice and experience.

David Cherniack · February 6th, 2010, 01:52 PM

Thanks, Dan. Hope so, too :)

Olof Ekbergh · February 6th, 2010, 03:25 PM

23.976p is a good choice.

Or you could shoot PAL and convert to 23.976p for the NTSC people. Either way works well. One way you get a speed up, the other a slowdown.

I would think about a Nexto, really easy to download to.

I primarily use Macs so I "know nothing" about W7. Some here will though.

On Macs I usually just copy to several drives instead of setting up a mirrored RAID. It seems just as fast and it is easy to mount just one drive when you get back to transfer to your studio RAIDs. And you can keep the drives in different hotel rooms, cars or whatever in case of "what we don't like to think about".

In the studio I always use RAID 5.

olof@westsideav.com

David Cherniack · February 6th, 2010, 03:37 PM

Thanks, Olof,

I have to deliver 59.94i to the NTSC people (maybe we should start saying 60 cycle, instead). Unfortunately they don't accept 23.976p.

I think the Nexto is appropriate for field backup, when you don't have an editing station nearby. It's more limiting than a handy port multiplier enclosure populated with up to 2TB drives.

Failing the Raid 1 idea there must be a software solution that double copies to two separate drives.

Olof Ekbergh · February 6th, 2010, 03:42 PM

David,

What I meant was convert 25fps pal to 24p, then do a pulldown to 60i. AE will do all this for you. I am using the terms I use a lot instead of actual frame rates here.

Also it is easy to write a script that copies the same files to two drives. If I did windows I would give you the script. There are lots of people that can write that "macro" for you or you could get a macro program like QuickKeys to do it for you.

Bob Willis · February 6th, 2010, 06:05 PM

Question 2.
I have used Shotput Pro to copy Sony SxS cards to 2 hard drives in the field for a multiple camera shoot. It worked well. They say you can copy from any digital card on their web site. I don't know about Win 7 support.

http://www.imagineproducts.com/index...&products_id=2

David Cherniack · February 6th, 2010, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olof Ekbergh

David,

What I meant was convert 25fps pal to 24p, then do a pulldown to 60i. AE will do all this for you. I am using the terms I use a lot instead of actual frame rates here.

I've never been thrilled with Ae's native frame rate conversion, at least with interlaced. Progessive may work better. But the Twixtor plugin works extremely well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olof Ekbergh

Also it is easy to write a script that copies the same files to two drives. If I did windows I would give you the script. There are lots of people that can write that "macro" for you or you could get a macro program like QuickKeys to do it for you.

A simple batch will do the copies progressively but that may be slower than Raid 1 or Shotput.

Thanks, Bob. I'll read up on Shotput.

David Cherniack · February 6th, 2010, 06:55 PM

This new product - the Sonnet Qio - looks interesting. It seems to be a multi-card reader/copier with 2 compactFlash card slots (among others) and 4 e-sata ports

Sonnet - Qio: Professional Universal Media Reader/Writer Plus Four eSATA Ports

There's no manual yet so I'm not sure how it works but if you can stick two full compactFlash cards in it and have it copy both to e-sata drives that would be terrific.

Any other multiple compactFlash card readers out there that anyone knows about?

Olof Ekbergh · February 6th, 2010, 09:54 PM

David,

AE will do a great job as long as you are converting or interpreting video frame for frame not creating new ones. And it does 3:2 pulldown perfectly to 60i. Turning 25p or 24p into 30p is very problematic as is 30p to 25 or 24.

Unless you have a raid controller in the computer or in the drive box. It is the same speed copying to a "software" raid as copying to 2 separate drives. It can be done simultaneously the limiting factor is the bus.

Rafael Amador · February 7th, 2010, 07:39 AM

To go from 25 to 24 or 23'98 you don't need to render, just conform in CimemaTools or similar.
Rafael

Mike Leisegang · February 7th, 2010, 09:54 AM

Hi David,

I might be able to help with this workflow.

Have just returned from a location shoot in NZ.

You are welcome to email me with your phone number.

Will call you if you like.

Cheers

Mike.

Dave Sperling · February 7th, 2010, 10:58 PM

Hi David,
The main thing is to keep yourself organized and analyze your needs. When traveling I've made data redundancy my #1 priority, followed by staying current, with getting footage into post running in third place.
I tend to bring numerous small (500GB) hard drives - such as WD Passports - and use each for a specific purpose. Typically I'll keep two for BPAV files (primary and backup) and two for MXF's. Yes, they get labeled very specifically. One set stays in the hotel safe when on a shoot. Additional drives may be used to ship data back to cutting room, or for editing on location. They never are all in the same place at the same time, except pussibly while doing transfers in the hotel room. I use a VAIO with extra batteries because the drives can drain the internal battery pretty quickly if several are plugged in at once and I don't have a power source. I usually also carry a small inverter in case I need to work in a vehicle. Consider ShotPut if you feel comfortable with it, or even a simple transfer program like Backup Magic can help keep you organized. When I get back, if the client wants an archive copy (and is willing to pay for time & discs), I'll transfer everything to XDcam ProDiscs using a U1 drive.
It sounds simplistic, but an organized approach (even to the point of doing things at the same time of day) creates a workable routine very quickly, and what seems slow or clumsy the first couple of days will become second nature. For instance, I would always make a point of starting transfers as soon as I got back to the hotel room, and having a longer transfer operation run while going out to dinner. Make sure you have enough cards to get through a whole day of shooting if you're running around to numerous locations. I've gotten caught having to do transfers on the fly when my producer would decide to shoot 'a little b-roll' on our backup camera, sometimes amounting to several hours of footage in a day. (Doing transfers in the back of a bouncy bus driving on dirt roads in third world countries is not my favorite part of the assignment.) Since getting the NanoFlash I've added a NexTo drive to my kit. I always make a point of setting up the producer's computer with the appropriate drivers and software BEFORE the start of the trip, so I have a potential backup if necessary, or another transfer station if things get really crazy. I carry 5.5 hours of SxS cards, plus 3 hours of Hoodman adapter cards, so being organized with the transfers allows me to get a little sleep each night.
The toughest shoots are obviously the ones where you shoot/travel/sleep each day. On those, you'll need to be more pro-active on getting the transfers done while shooting. (Always try to get seats with power plugs on your long flights - and bring a cube tap in case your plug deosn't work and someone else's does.) Cube taps are also useful in airports where plugs are always at a premium.
If you want, let us know more about your daily routine and I'm sure you'll get more specific suggestions.
Best,
Dave S.

David Cherniack · February 8th, 2010, 08:34 AM

Great practical advice. Thanks Dave.

I wasn't planning on saving my native EX1 files but your post convinced me that I should as an emergency backup. This raises the question:

Is it possible to name the nanoFlash files with the same names as the Ex1r? Probably not but what can be done to identify and match the respective clips?

Tim Polster · February 8th, 2010, 08:51 AM

David,

Are you going to be travelling around or in one place?

Will you be editing on a desktop or a laptop?

Do you need to shoot in 1080 or 720?

I have not tried it, but have you seen a 720p60 to 720p50 conversion? At least it would stay progressive before you converted it to 60/50i.

I shoot with 720p60 a lot because it transfers well when I put it on a 720p24 or a 720p30 timeline.

When you say 50i & 60i flavors, does this mean you want or need a high framerate look?

Because if you are delivering on Blu-ray, 720p60/50 is part of the spec and achieves the same as 1080i in terms of motion and the resolution difference is debated on weather or not it exists. You could stay in 720p60/50 for blu-ray and convert to 60/50i for DVD.

I will take a stab at the storage after I hear back from you.

February 6th, 2010, 01:44 PM	#2
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear David, I hope others offer their advice and experience. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

February 6th, 2010, 03:25 PM	#4
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	23.976p is a good choice. Or you could shoot PAL and convert to 23.976p for the NTSC people. Either way works well. One way you get a speed up, the other a slowdown. I would think about a Nexto, really easy to download to. I primarily use Macs so I "know nothing" about W7. Some here will though. On Macs I usually just copy to several drives instead of setting up a mirrored RAID. It seems just as fast and it is easy to mount just one drive when you get back to transfer to your studio RAIDs. And you can keep the drives in different hotel rooms, cars or whatever in case of "what we don't like to think about". In the studio I always use RAID 5. olof@westsideav.com Attached Thumbnails

February 7th, 2010, 10:58 PM	#13
Dave Sperling Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Tinton Falls, NJ Posts: 780	Organization systems... Hi David, The main thing is to keep yourself organized and analyze your needs. When traveling I've made data redundancy my #1 priority, followed by staying current, with getting footage into post running in third place. I tend to bring numerous small (500GB) hard drives - such as WD Passports - and use each for a specific purpose. Typically I'll keep two for BPAV files (primary and backup) and two for MXF's. Yes, they get labeled very specifically. One set stays in the hotel safe when on a shoot. Additional drives may be used to ship data back to cutting room, or for editing on location. They never are all in the same place at the same time, except pussibly while doing transfers in the hotel room. I use a VAIO with extra batteries because the drives can drain the internal battery pretty quickly if several are plugged in at once and I don't have a power source. I usually also carry a small inverter in case I need to work in a vehicle. Consider ShotPut if you feel comfortable with it, or even a simple transfer program like Backup Magic can help keep you organized. When I get back, if the client wants an archive copy (and is willing to pay for time & discs), I'll transfer everything to XDcam ProDiscs using a U1 drive. It sounds simplistic, but an organized approach (even to the point of doing things at the same time of day) creates a workable routine very quickly, and what seems slow or clumsy the first couple of days will become second nature. For instance, I would always make a point of starting transfers as soon as I got back to the hotel room, and having a longer transfer operation run while going out to dinner. Make sure you have enough cards to get through a whole day of shooting if you're running around to numerous locations. I've gotten caught having to do transfers on the fly when my producer would decide to shoot 'a little b-roll' on our backup camera, sometimes amounting to several hours of footage in a day. (Doing transfers in the back of a bouncy bus driving on dirt roads in third world countries is not my favorite part of the assignment.) Since getting the NanoFlash I've added a NexTo drive to my kit. I always make a point of setting up the producer's computer with the appropriate drivers and software BEFORE the start of the trip, so I have a potential backup if necessary, or another transfer station if things get really crazy. I carry 5.5 hours of SxS cards, plus 3 hours of Hoodman adapter cards, so being organized with the transfers allows me to get a little sleep each night. The toughest shoots are obviously the ones where you shoot/travel/sleep each day. On those, you'll need to be more pro-active on getting the transfers done while shooting. (Always try to get seats with power plugs on your long flights - and bring a cube tap in case your plug deosn't work and someone else's does.) Cube taps are also useful in airports where plugs are always at a premium. If you want, let us know more about your daily routine and I'm sure you'll get more specific suggestions. Best, Dave S.

February 5th, 2010, 01:56 PM	#1
David Cherniack Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 186	Shoot and archive advice, please I could use a bit of advice from the experienced international shooters here. I'm about to embark on a multi-month shoot with an EX1. I'll be acquiring a nanoFlash to record to. I have to deliver HD in both 50i and 59.94i flavours. Question 1. Best acquisition format? In the past I've shot 59.94i and done expensive frame rate conversions to 50i. But with the EX1 nanoFlash combo I would think 23.976p with 2:3 pulldown to 29.97 and speed change to 25 is the way to go for space and aesthetic reasons. Does anyone think otherwise? Question 2. I need to protection copy and edit in the room where I'll be staying. I'll take along a 5 drive port multiplier e-sata enclosure populated with large drives. I thought I'd Raid 1 a set of two drives and copy from the CompactFlash cards cards at the end of each day, that way having dual copies, one to edit with, and one to shelve as protection. But, never having used Raid 1 (I know 0 and 6) I don't know if the single drives can be addressed in Win7 independently, outside the raid set. Or alternatively, is there a good hardware/software solution for making dual copies? Thanks for any advice, David

February 6th, 2010, 01:52 PM	#3
David Cherniack Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 186	Thanks, Dan. Hope so, too :)

February 6th, 2010, 03:37 PM	#5
David Cherniack Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 186	Thanks, Olof, I have to deliver 59.94i to the NTSC people (maybe we should start saying 60 cycle, instead). Unfortunately they don't accept 23.976p. I think the Nexto is appropriate for field backup, when you don't have an editing station nearby. It's more limiting than a handy port multiplier enclosure populated with up to 2TB drives. Failing the Raid 1 idea there must be a software solution that double copies to two separate drives.

February 6th, 2010, 03:42 PM	#6
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	David, What I meant was convert 25fps pal to 24p, then do a pulldown to 60i. AE will do all this for you. I am using the terms I use a lot instead of actual frame rates here. Also it is easy to write a script that copies the same files to two drives. If I did windows I would give you the script. There are lots of people that can write that "macro" for you or you could get a macro program like QuickKeys to do it for you.

February 6th, 2010, 06:05 PM	#7
Bob Willis Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 292	Question 2. I have used Shotput Pro to copy Sony SxS cards to 2 hard drives in the field for a multiple camera shoot. It worked well. They say you can copy from any digital card on their web site. I don't know about Win 7 support. http://www.imagineproducts.com/index...&products_id=2

February 6th, 2010, 06:55 PM	#9
David Cherniack Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 186	This new product - the Sonnet Qio - looks interesting. It seems to be a multi-card reader/copier with 2 compactFlash card slots (among others) and 4 e-sata ports Sonnet - Qio: Professional Universal Media Reader/Writer Plus Four eSATA Ports There's no manual yet so I'm not sure how it works but if you can stick two full compactFlash cards in it and have it copy both to e-sata drives that would be terrific. Any other multiple compactFlash card readers out there that anyone knows about?

February 6th, 2010, 09:54 PM	#10
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	David, AE will do a great job as long as you are converting or interpreting video frame for frame not creating new ones. And it does 3:2 pulldown perfectly to 60i. Turning 25p or 24p into 30p is very problematic as is 30p to 25 or 24. Unless you have a raid controller in the computer or in the drive box. It is the same speed copying to a "software" raid as copying to 2 separate drives. It can be done simultaneously the limiting factor is the bus.

February 7th, 2010, 07:39 AM	#11
Rafael Amador Major Player Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Vientiane (Lao PDR) Posts: 349	To go from 25 to 24 or 23'98 you don't need to render, just conform in CimemaTools or similar. Rafael

February 7th, 2010, 09:54 AM	#12
Mike Leisegang Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: UK Posts: 51	Hi David, I might be able to help with this workflow. Have just returned from a location shoot in NZ. You are welcome to email me with your phone number. Will call you if you like. Cheers Mike.

February 8th, 2010, 08:34 AM	#14
David Cherniack Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 186	Great practical advice. Thanks Dave. I wasn't planning on saving my native EX1 files but your post convinced me that I should as an emergency backup. This raises the question: Is it possible to name the nanoFlash files with the same names as the Ex1r? Probably not but what can be done to identify and match the respective clips?

February 8th, 2010, 08:51 AM	#15
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	David, Are you going to be travelling around or in one place? Will you be editing on a desktop or a laptop? Do you need to shoot in 1080 or 720? I have not tried it, but have you seen a 720p60 to 720p50 conversion? At least it would stay progressive before you converted it to 60/50i. I shoot with 720p60 a lot because it transfers well when I put it on a 720p24 or a 720p30 timeline. When you say 50i & 60i flavors, does this mean you want or need a high framerate look? Because if you are delivering on Blu-ray, 720p60/50 is part of the spec and achieves the same as 1080i in terms of motion and the resolution difference is debated on weather or not it exists. You could stay in 720p60/50 for blu-ray and convert to 60/50i for DVD. I will take a stab at the storage after I hear back from you.