Will Cineform Be Supported? at DVinfo.net

Steve Kalle · January 16th, 2010, 05:36 PM

I just downloaded Neo HD and it doesn't recognize either MXF or MOV Nano files so I can't convert. This is a major bummer and getting a Nanoflash is not looking good.

Dan Keaton · January 16th, 2010, 06:53 PM

Dear Steve,

We create standard, Sony Optical Disk format, compatible, files.

I wonder if CineForm can work with the XDCam 50 Mbps 4:2:2 CBR files from the Sony PDW-700 and PDW-F800 cameras.

Paul Steinberg · January 17th, 2010, 01:52 PM

I'm waiting on delivery of my 1DmkIV now but it seems like Cineform is the most popular transcoder on the block for those cameras. Would be brilliant if the Nanoflash files could be run through it as well.

Mark Job · January 17th, 2010, 10:23 PM

Hi Paul & Steve:
Technicolor in Hollywood and Fotokem have fully embraced Cineform as *THE CODEC* for post. Avid will now be severely pressured into making it fully compatible in Media Composer. A new SSDR is coming out which fully uses it, so it's game over. Cineform wins ! The Canon 5D Mark II will now get its expected 24 and 25 F firmware update. I suspect this was because someone over at Skywalker Ranch wants to shoot a film with these cameras. I understood (??) they will convert or transfer using Cineform. There's another game changer coming which will leave everyone and everything in the dust. I wish I could tell you more now, but I can't until next week, or maybe sooner than that ;-)

Rafael Amador · January 18th, 2010, 05:36 AM

But is not the NANO who have to support Cineform.
Is Cineform who have to support the NANO files.
The question should be for the other guys.
rafael

Mark Job · January 18th, 2010, 07:51 PM

Hi Rafael:
Correct. This would indicate Cineform must also accept to convert the Sony XDCAM HD codec. There is also an added advantage of a recorder being able to record directly in Cineform. I'm supposing this would not be possible in the Nano of XDR. It would be pretty cool to program some kinda routine via a firmware upgrade to the nano and XDR which would allow you to push one of the extra menu buttons and be able to convert to cinefom right inside the box ! I don't know how much hard RAM CD has got inside their FPGA design which would allow a third party program like Cineform to reside.

Here's how it would work.

Step 1: You press a menu selection which changes the shooting mode into a shoot & convert mode.

Step 2: You put two (2) blank high capacity CF Cards into a Nano or 4 blank CF cards into the XDR.

Step 3: Go shoot or simply insert already shot CF cards into the nano CF Card Slot # 1 or Pre-Recorded CF Cards in CF Card Slots # 1 and # 2 in the XDR.

* In this mode in the Nano you can only record to the end of CF media in Slot # 1 and in the XDR only shoot until cards in Slot # 1 and CF Card Slot # 2 are filled.
** A warning comes up once the limit is reached....Telling you to begin conversion.
*** A third option is to program so that *No recording can be performed in this "Conversion Mode," and only pre-recorded CF media should be inserted into Slot # 1 on the Nano and slots # 1 and # 2 on the XDR.*

Step 4: Button number or combo press brings up flashing dialogue, "Begin Conversion ?"

Step 5: Press number whatever ? A Flashing dialogue "Converting media," or "Converting to Cineform" flashes with progressing dots. Now the Nano is taking the pre-recorded clips in slot # 1 and converting and copying converted clips to the blank second CF card media in slot # 2. In the XDR it takes the first 2 slots of pre-recorded CF card media and converts it and copies it over to empty cf card media in slots 3 and 4.

* When conversion process completes, then the dialogue "Conversion Complete" flashes on the screen and won't go away until you hot unplug all the cf cards.

There you go Mike & Tommy ! I just gave you $50,000.00 worth of a program original idea. I expect to be testing a public beta of this next week ;-)

Steve Kalle · January 18th, 2010, 10:42 PM

Mark, I like your idea but does it record 10 bit rather than converting the 8 bit recording to 10 bit cineform?

For me, being able to convert the Nano files to a format that works in all my apps from AE to Nuke is essential.

Rafael Amador · January 19th, 2010, 06:12 AM

Well, a bit of patient ladies and Gentlemen.
This is just the beginning.
We are are going to a modular format, and a multi-codec, fully scalar recorder will be one of the pieces.
PANASONIC cameras are already recording 10b, but crunched in 100Mbps, and the NANO records at data rates higher than needed for Prores HQ.
At the moment I don't think you can put all that in a box like the NANO, but that is a matter of time.
Cheers,
rafael

Chad Haufschild · January 19th, 2010, 01:59 PM

Intriguing thread.

First, Cineform does support XDCAM HD/XD for conversion in all Prospect/Neo products HD and above. See the link: Cineform NeotHd : Specifications

I'm guessing it's a problem with the bit rate causing Cineform to freak out, but I'm no engineer. Steve, you may want to post on the Cineform forum to get their POV.

At any rate, I've been hoping and dreaming and praying for a small device like the Nano that would record directly into Cineform. Hearing what Mark is saying about Cineform's big push into the industry is awesome! Maybe my dream can come true.

Mark Job · January 19th, 2010, 02:02 PM

Hi Chad:
Can you send me a PM with your coordinates ?

Steve Nelson · January 19th, 2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Haufschild

Intriguing thread.

First, Cineform does support XDCAM HD/XD for conversion in all Prospect/Neo products HD and above. See the link: Cineform NeotHd : Specifications

I'm guessing it's a problem with the bit rate causing Cineform to freak out, but I'm no engineer. Steve, you may want to post on the Cineform forum to get their POV.

At any rate, I've been hoping and dreaming and praying for a small device like the Nano that would record directly into Cineform. Hearing what Mark is saying about Cineform's big push into the industry is awesome! Maybe my dream can come true.

Something like this?
cinedeckHD
I don't think it's out yet but coming soon.

I'm sure CD could make a Cineform capture device, not sure it could all fit in the Nano in its current config though. Not everyone needs a monitor so if CD did come out with something like that I think they'd capture another significant portion of the market especially when DSLRs can actually export via HDMI.

Aaron Newsome · January 19th, 2010, 07:03 PM

Steve, the Cinedeck has been shipping for a little while now. It's quite a little beast. I'm ANXIOUSLY awaiting the 4:4:4 recorder they are coming out with next month. It's exactly the same as the box you see on their site but it'll have dual link HD-SDI 4:4:4 12bit recording. W00T!

Chad Haufschild · January 19th, 2010, 08:14 PM

I've watched the Cinedeck for a while now. At $5000 it's a about twice what I'm willing to pay for. Like Aaron said, it is a cool little beast. But it's more than I need. Encoder, monitor, computer... I just want the encoder. And honestly that's all I can pay for.

The problem adapting Cineform for a small form factor is that it's not just a codec, it's a software. Making a hardware encoder out of a full on piece of software is a huge task. We'll see what happens.

Aaron Newsome · January 19th, 2010, 08:20 PM

Exactly Chad. If you know of a camera mounted Cineform (or any high end codec) recorder that will do 4:4:4 12bit for under $10k, let me know! For now, the Cinedeck is the only one that I know of that will do it. It's really quite a bargain and it only costs about what my Convergent Designs XDR did.

I don't need a monitor either, a simple recorder will do. I already own a Marshall. But since this is the only camera mounted 4:4:4 recorder that I know of for under $50k, and it includes a monitor, I'll make do with the monitor.

I just got an email from them and they should have the pre-order form up for the 4:4:4 recorder by Feb 2nd. I'll be first in line.

Mike Schell · January 19th, 2010, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

I just downloaded Neo HD and it doesn't recognize either MXF or MOV Nano files so I can't convert. This is a major bummer and getting a Nanoflash is not looking good.

Hi Steve-
Hang on a bit longer, I think we'll get support for the CineForm CODEC in the near term. I don't have an exact date, but it's a work in progress.

Best-

January 16th, 2010, 05:36 PM	#1
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	Will Cineform Be Supported? I just downloaded Neo HD and it doesn't recognize either MXF or MOV Nano files so I can't convert. This is a major bummer and getting a Nanoflash is not looking good.

January 16th, 2010, 06:53 PM	#2
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Steve, We create standard, Sony Optical Disk format, compatible, files. I wonder if CineForm can work with the XDCam 50 Mbps 4:2:2 CBR files from the Sony PDW-700 and PDW-F800 cameras. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 17th, 2010, 01:52 PM	#3
Paul Steinberg Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 50	I'm waiting on delivery of my 1DmkIV now but it seems like Cineform is the most popular transcoder on the block for those cameras. Would be brilliant if the Nanoflash files could be run through it as well. __________________ Paul Steinberg DP, Toronto \|+\|Canada

January 17th, 2010, 10:23 PM	#4
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	*Cineform IS* it in Pro post now !** Hi Paul & Steve: Technicolor in Hollywood and Fotokem have fully embraced Cineform as THE CODEC for post. Avid will now be severely pressured into making it fully compatible in Media Composer. A new SSDR is coming out which fully uses it, so it's game over. Cineform wins ! The Canon 5D Mark II will now get its expected 24 and 25 F firmware update. I suspect this was because someone over at Skywalker Ranch wants to shoot a film with these cameras. I understood (??) they will convert or transfer using Cineform. There's another game changer coming which will leave everyone and everything in the dust. I wish I could tell you more now, but I can't until next week, or maybe sooner than that ;-)

January 18th, 2010, 07:51 PM	#6
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	The Other Way Around Hi Rafael: Correct. This would indicate Cineform must also accept to convert the Sony XDCAM HD codec. There is also an added advantage of a recorder being able to record directly in Cineform. I'm supposing this would not be possible in the Nano of XDR. It would be pretty cool to program some kinda routine via a firmware upgrade to the nano and XDR which would allow you to push one of the extra menu buttons and be able to convert to cinefom right inside the box ! I don't know how much hard RAM CD has got inside their FPGA design which would allow a third party program like Cineform to reside. Here's how it would work. Step 1: You press a menu selection which changes the shooting mode into a shoot & convert mode. Step 2: You put two (2) blank high capacity CF Cards into a Nano or 4 blank CF cards into the XDR. Step 3: Go shoot or simply insert already shot CF cards into the nano CF Card Slot # 1 or Pre-Recorded CF Cards in CF Card Slots # 1 and # 2 in the XDR. * In this mode in the Nano you can only record to the end of CF media in Slot # 1 and in the XDR only shoot until cards in Slot # 1 and CF Card Slot # 2 are filled. A warning comes up once the limit is reached....Telling you to begin conversion. * A third option is to program so that No recording can be performed in this "Conversion Mode," and only pre-recorded CF media should be inserted into Slot # 1 on the Nano and slots # 1 and # 2 on the XDR. Step 4: Button number or combo press brings up flashing dialogue, "Begin Conversion ?" Step 5: Press number whatever ? A Flashing dialogue "Converting media," or "Converting to Cineform" flashes with progressing dots. Now the Nano is taking the pre-recorded clips in slot # 1 and converting and copying converted clips to the blank second CF card media in slot # 2. In the XDR it takes the first 2 slots of pre-recorded CF card media and converts it and copies it over to empty cf card media in slots 3 and 4. * When conversion process completes, then the dialogue "Conversion Complete" flashes on the screen and won't go away until you hot unplug all the cf cards. There you go Mike & Tommy ! I just gave you $50,000.00 worth of a program original idea. I expect to be testing a public beta of this next week ;-)

January 18th, 2010, 05:36 AM	#5
Rafael Amador Major Player Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Vientiane (Lao PDR) Posts: 349	But is not the NANO who have to support Cineform. Is Cineform who have to support the NANO files. The question should be for the other guys. rafael

January 18th, 2010, 10:42 PM	#7
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	Mark, I like your idea but does it record 10 bit rather than converting the 8 bit recording to 10 bit cineform? For me, being able to convert the Nano files to a format that works in all my apps from AE to Nuke is essential.

January 19th, 2010, 06:12 AM	#8
Rafael Amador Major Player Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Vientiane (Lao PDR) Posts: 349	Well, a bit of patient ladies and Gentlemen. This is just the beginning. We are are going to a modular format, and a multi-codec, fully scalar recorder will be one of the pieces. PANASONIC cameras are already recording 10b, but crunched in 100Mbps, and the NANO records at data rates higher than needed for Prores HQ. At the moment I don't think you can put all that in a box like the NANO, but that is a matter of time. Cheers, rafael

January 19th, 2010, 01:59 PM	#9
Chad Haufschild Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 162	Intriguing thread. First, Cineform does support XDCAM HD/XD for conversion in all Prospect/Neo products HD and above. See the link: Cineform NeotHd : Specifications I'm guessing it's a problem with the bit rate causing Cineform to freak out, but I'm no engineer. Steve, you may want to post on the Cineform forum to get their POV. At any rate, I've been hoping and dreaming and praying for a small device like the Nano that would record directly into Cineform. Hearing what Mark is saying about Cineform's big push into the industry is awesome! Maybe my dream can come true.

January 19th, 2010, 02:02 PM	#10
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	PM Request to Chad Hi Chad: Can you send me a PM with your coordinates ?

January 19th, 2010, 07:03 PM	#12
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	Steve, the Cinedeck has been shipping for a little while now. It's quite a little beast. I'm ANXIOUSLY awaiting the 4:4:4 recorder they are coming out with next month. It's exactly the same as the box you see on their site but it'll have dual link HD-SDI 4:4:4 12bit recording. W00T!

January 19th, 2010, 08:14 PM	#13
Chad Haufschild Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 162	I've watched the Cinedeck for a while now. At $5000 it's a about twice what I'm willing to pay for. Like Aaron said, it is a cool little beast. But it's more than I need. Encoder, monitor, computer... I just want the encoder. And honestly that's all I can pay for. The problem adapting Cineform for a small form factor is that it's not just a codec, it's a software. Making a hardware encoder out of a full on piece of software is a huge task. We'll see what happens.

January 19th, 2010, 08:20 PM	#14
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	Exactly Chad. If you know of a camera mounted Cineform (or any high end codec) recorder that will do 4:4:4 12bit for under $10k, let me know! For now, the Cinedeck is the only one that I know of that will do it. It's really quite a bargain and it only costs about what my Convergent Designs XDR did. I don't need a monitor either, a simple recorder will do. I already own a Marshall. But since this is the only camera mounted 4:4:4 recorder that I know of for under $50k, and it includes a monitor, I'll make do with the monitor. I just got an email from them and they should have the pre-order form up for the 4:4:4 recorder by Feb 2nd. I'll be first in line.