A/V Sync Issue in Latest XDR/nano Firmware

Dan Keaton · December 4th, 2009, 10:07 AM

Dear Mark,

We have fixed the jamsync issue that you were having with Canon 24F.

We expect to post a new release, with this fix included, this afternoon.

Mark Job · December 4th, 2009, 10:37 AM

Hi Dan:
Thank you for that info and all those fixes. :-)

Respectfully,

Aaron Newsome · December 4th, 2009, 11:19 AM

Still scared of the new fix, with 24 hours of regression testing.

Mike Schell · December 4th, 2009, 03:42 PM

We just posted new XDR / nano firmware that corrects the A/V sync issues. We tested the sync for several hours without any problems.

The new firmware also adds pull-down removal over HDMI, corrects an analog audio input channel flip (L <-> R), adds 2:3:3:2 pulldown cadence, and corrects the LTC Jam sync for 24p formats.

The new firmware version is 1.1.154 for the nanoFlash and 1.1.151 for the XDR.

Best-

Mark Job · December 4th, 2009, 05:36 PM

Hi Mike:
There's many fixes in such a short notice. Congratulations and thanks for this correction. The Nano & XDR took another step forward today.

Thank You.

Aaron Newsome · December 4th, 2009, 08:58 PM

I won't be on the bleeding edge with this firmware. We may need the jam sync on the shoot we start Monday but I'm going to convince them to sync the old fashioned way.

Mark Job · December 4th, 2009, 10:35 PM

Hi Aaron:
If you are Jam Syncing to 59.94 i then don't worry, it is OK. If 24 p, then there is some pause for concern. However, I didn't do any testing with 24p - my testing was done with Canon's 24 F camera setting and using 3:2 pull down removal to achieve 23.98 fps on the XDR. I have no idea what 24p will do in Jam Sync since there's no 3:2 cadence to remove. Yes, I get your concern to not want to be experimental with a paying job until CD has got it right. (But they may not have 24p Jam Sync wrong to be fair) Why not try a test and see how Jam Sync is functioning with your camera ?

Aaron Newsome · December 5th, 2009, 12:58 PM

Hi Mark, I don't own any cameras that send out a sync signal so I have nothing to test against. If I were to sync at this job, I'd be syncing the XDR with the sound guys recorder and I'm not sure what capabilities he has on his recorder. We'll uncover that in the last production meeting before we start shooting. It's a single camera shoot so I don't worry about syncing with other cameras, just the sound guy so that post is easier.

We're recording scratch audio on the XDR in either case though so I don't imagine post will be too difficult.

Ed David · December 5th, 2009, 05:52 PM

accidents happen. always be careful before upgrading any firmware. I always run a backup recording with the sony sxs cards. glad I did. Just did a job for ESPN and I noticed the sync issues. always good to have a backup.

Mark Job · December 5th, 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Newsome

Hi Mark, I don't own any cameras that send out a sync signal so I have nothing to test against. If I were to sync at this job, I'd be syncing the XDR with the sound guys recorder and I'm not sure what capabilities he has on his recorder. We'll uncover that in the last production meeting before we start shooting. It's a single camera shoot so I don't worry about syncing with other cameras, just the sound guy so that post is easier.

We're recording scratch audio on the XDR in either case though so I don't imagine post will be too difficult.

...Hi Aaron: As long as the sound guy makes sure you and he are on the same TC reference (Not 24 F Right now !), then all should be well.

Lance Librandi · December 7th, 2009, 08:20 AM

Hello to the CD Team,
Well done on a prompt fix to the audio sync problem your efforts a much appreciated. I have just complete three, three hour recording sessions with the NanoFlash in SD mode with the prerecord buffer on and the lip sync looks great. ( Problem solved)
I have compared the audio from parallel recordings to tape and a direct recording to hard disk via the Black Magic HD Extreme 3 card. I am unable to pick any loss of any frames.
Cheers

Mike Schell · December 7th, 2009, 01:37 PM

Hi Lance-
Appreciate the feedback. We now have long term A/V sync as part of our standard barrage of tests prior to each release. It's almost taking longer to test the code than to develop it.

Best-

Luben Izov · December 10th, 2009, 01:35 PM

Hi Mike,
I was in Toronto when I got the email from Tommy about the audio problem with .150 firmware one day to late.... The material I shot on set of "Cra$h & Burn" has that audio problem, but, the good news is, the audio will be used as a commentary over any of the picture material as it has been meant that way, no sync need it... Isn't that a nice coincidence?! Thank you for the fix. I posted a test result of .154 HDMI pull-down firmware on 2:3:3:2 tread if interested.
Cheers
Luben

Mike Schell · December 10th, 2009, 08:09 PM

Hi Luben-
Glad our mistake did not cause any real problems with your shoot. We are moving to a beta program on all future releases. We will post new code a week to two before formal release with a stern warning not to use this firmware for production use. We only hope enough users will in fact test the beta code and provide feedback with any problems/issues.

Best-

Aaron Newsome · December 10th, 2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schell

Hi Luben-
Glad our mistake did not cause any real problems with your shoot. We are moving to a beta program on all future releases. We will post new code a week to two before formal release with a stern warning not to use this firmware for production use. We only hope enough users will in fact test the beta code and provide feedback with any problems/issues.

Best-

Sounds like a decent idea. RED camera became stars of digital cinema by turning their entire user base into beta testers.

December 4th, 2009, 10:07 AM	#16
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, We have fixed the jamsync issue that you were having with Canon 24F. We expect to post a new release, with this fix included, this afternoon. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

December 4th, 2009, 10:37 AM	#17
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Thank You Dan Hi Dan: Thank you for that info and all those fixes. :-) Respectfully,

December 4th, 2009, 03:42 PM	#19
Mike Schell Convergent Design Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 869	Corrected Firmware Posted We just posted new XDR / nano firmware that corrects the A/V sync issues. We tested the sync for several hours without any problems. The new firmware also adds pull-down removal over HDMI, corrects an analog audio input channel flip (L <-> R), adds 2:3:3:2 pulldown cadence, and corrects the LTC Jam sync for 24p formats. The new firmware version is 1.1.154 for the nanoFlash and 1.1.151 for the XDR. Best- __________________ Mike Schell Convergent Design

December 4th, 2009, 05:36 PM	#20
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Wow ! Lots of Fixes ! Hi Mike: There's many fixes in such a short notice. Congratulations and thanks for this correction. The Nano & XDR took another step forward today. Thank You.

December 4th, 2009, 10:35 PM	#22
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Which Jam Sync ? Hi Aaron: If you are Jam Syncing to 59.94 i then don't worry, it is OK. If 24 p, then there is some pause for concern. However, I didn't do any testing with 24p - my testing was done with Canon's 24 F camera setting and using 3:2 pull down removal to achieve 23.98 fps on the XDR. I have no idea what 24p will do in Jam Sync since there's no 3:2 cadence to remove. Yes, I get your concern to not want to be experimental with a paying job until CD has got it right. (But they may not have 24p Jam Sync wrong to be fair) Why not try a test and see how Jam Sync is functioning with your camera ?

December 4th, 2009, 11:19 AM	#18
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	Still scared of the new fix, with 24 hours of regression testing.

December 4th, 2009, 08:58 PM	#21
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	I won't be on the bleeding edge with this firmware. We may need the jam sync on the shoot we start Monday but I'm going to convince them to sync the old fashioned way.

December 5th, 2009, 12:58 PM	#23
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	Hi Mark, I don't own any cameras that send out a sync signal so I have nothing to test against. If I were to sync at this job, I'd be syncing the XDR with the sound guys recorder and I'm not sure what capabilities he has on his recorder. We'll uncover that in the last production meeting before we start shooting. It's a single camera shoot so I don't worry about syncing with other cameras, just the sound guy so that post is easier. We're recording scratch audio on the XDR in either case though so I don't imagine post will be too difficult.

December 5th, 2009, 05:52 PM	#24
Ed David Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 119	accidents happen. always be careful before upgrading any firmware. I always run a backup recording with the sony sxs cards. glad I did. Just did a job for ESPN and I noticed the sync issues. always good to have a backup.

December 7th, 2009, 08:20 AM	#26
Lance Librandi Major Player Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: South Australia Posts: 374	Hello to the CD Team, Well done on a prompt fix to the audio sync problem your efforts a much appreciated. I have just complete three, three hour recording sessions with the NanoFlash in SD mode with the prerecord buffer on and the lip sync looks great. ( Problem solved) I have compared the audio from parallel recordings to tape and a direct recording to hard disk via the Black Magic HD Extreme 3 card. I am unable to pick any loss of any frames. Cheers

December 7th, 2009, 01:37 PM	#27
Mike Schell Convergent Design Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 869	Hi Lance- Appreciate the feedback. We now have long term A/V sync as part of our standard barrage of tests prior to each release. It's almost taking longer to test the code than to develop it. Best- __________________ Mike Schell Convergent Design

December 10th, 2009, 01:35 PM	#28
Luben Izov Major Player Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: White Rock Posts: 254	late but still good... Hi Mike, I was in Toronto when I got the email from Tommy about the audio problem with .150 firmware one day to late.... The material I shot on set of "Cra$h & Burn" has that audio problem, but, the good news is, the audio will be used as a commentary over any of the picture material as it has been meant that way, no sync need it... Isn't that a nice coincidence?! Thank you for the fix. I posted a test result of .154 HDMI pull-down firmware on 2:3:3:2 tread if interested. Cheers Luben

December 10th, 2009, 08:09 PM	#29
Mike Schell Convergent Design Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 869	Hi Luben- Glad our mistake did not cause any real problems with your shoot. We are moving to a beta program on all future releases. We will post new code a week to two before formal release with a stern warning not to use this firmware for production use. We only hope enough users will in fact test the beta code and provide feedback with any problems/issues. Best- __________________ Mike Schell Convergent Design