Archiving Native nanoFLASH Files at DVinfo.net

Paul Inglis · December 1st, 2009, 10:35 AM

I thought a few might be interested in knowing that I have managed to successful write native nanoFLASH files to a Belkin Archival Gold BD-R. I shot the footage as;

100Mbps
Long GoP
MXF
1080/25p

I then proceeded to load the footage back onto my timeline in Vegas Pro 8 and 9 without any problems. This is a method I am looking to use to archive my native files and as well as a master copy of complete edited documentaries.

These disks aren’t cheap but have a shelf-life of 200 years though! I am using the inkjet printable versions with archival inks.

Perrone Ford · December 1st, 2009, 11:00 AM

I don't understand.

The files are nothing but data to the computer. The internal bitrates, or what they were recording with are immaterial to a burner. That's the entire point of getting away from tape.

Paul Inglis · December 1st, 2009, 11:46 AM

Yes got what you're saying thanks!

Barry J. Weckesser · December 1st, 2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Inglis

These disks aren’t cheap but have a shelf-life of 200 years though! I am using the inkjet printable versions with archival inks.

Paul - have they found the secret to immortality on the Isle of Man?? :)

Seriously though you are putting out some big $$. I considered archiving on BD-R but even at $ 4 to 5 per disc, considering the size of Nanoflash files it would be cost prohibitive.

I am archiving on 1 TB hard drives (Western Digital green) - 2 at a time - that fit into a trayless hard drive enclosure - at $ 83/ drive it seems like a relatively cheap alternative and since I don't keep the drives running except for backing up and they are always stored in an air-conditioned, low humidity environment hopefully they will last for quite some time.

Ron Little · December 2nd, 2009, 08:18 AM

Barry, what docking station are you using? I am thinking about this one at New Egg.

Thermaltake BlacX N0028USU External Hard Drive SATA Enclosure Docking Station 2.5" & 3.5" USB 2.0 $36.99

Barry J. Weckesser · December 2nd, 2009, 09:36 AM

Ron - I am using this one: Amazon.com: 2-BAY TRAYLESS USB 2.0/ ESATA RAID BOX: Electronics
A little pricier but has the option of RAID 0,1 ,JBOD etc.

Justin Benn · December 2nd, 2009, 09:54 AM

Anyone considered Drobo for archiving?

Jus.

Paul Inglis · December 2nd, 2009, 10:03 AM

Hi Barry,

I am immortal!!! :)

I am trying to find a good archival back-up for finished projects and it accompanying native files.

I do use RAID storage but have had a few hardware failures lately. On one drive I had the look-up table become corrupted and was impossible to recover the data. Another was a mechanic failure again it was impossible to recover the data. I think long-term 3.5” discs are better than 2.5” but they still fail. I use two different brands to back-up duplicates as it reduces the risk of both failing simultaneously. The other problem is when and how often to check.

I will still use this method as a back-up but would like an alternative method to accompany them.

I know that the nanoFLASH files can be put onto Sony Professional discs using a Sony PMW-U1 drive. But at this time I believe it is limited to certain bit rates (correct me if I’m wrong). The disks are as expensive as BDs plus an additional cost of the U1 reader is required. I think discs are more reliable than hard drives.

I have also thought about the LTO4 tape with nanoFLASH files as an alternative to discs.

Steve Brown · December 2nd, 2009, 11:29 AM

I'm hoping this won't be a problem for me in the near future, as I usually don't do post production. Normally, I hand the files to a producer and I'm done with it. Until my HDX900s are dead and gone, my DVC-Pro tape serves as my backup copy. Granted, it is not quite the same quality as the original nano files, but it would do in a pinch.

In the future, I might have to look for a backup method, but I don't think it will be optical disc. Burned disks (as opposed to replicated discs) have known issues for failure. I think the issue has something to do with the dye or chemicals within the burnable discs. I don't know if BD-Rs have the same issues.

Hard drive is reputed to be a better solution, although maybe not the best. Dual hard drive backup is probably recommended as Barry suggested. Everything I have seen points to LT04 as the best backup solution to date.

Paul Inglis · December 2nd, 2009, 12:05 PM

It’s the oxidisation that causes disc failure but the better quality ones can last 50 years or more. The Delkins I mentioned in my first post have a 200 year shelf life!

Steve Brown · December 2nd, 2009, 03:13 PM

Paul,

I have to say I haven't experienced any trouble with burned DVDs personally. I have heard from others who have had trouble though.
From what I hear, the "shelf life" from even the respected manufacturers is not much more than lip service. It's enough to scare me into doing a duplicate of anything important.

Does anyone know how stable solid state memory is? At some point, it might be practical to archive on CF cards... maybe only archiving the shots actually used in a production and backing up the rest on something like DVD.

Alister Chapman · December 4th, 2009, 10:33 AM

Barry and others using hard drives, do be aware that hard drives are more prone to failure if they are not used. A hard drive that sits on a shelf doing nothing will fail sooner than a drive being used regularly.

A drive stored flat is the worst. The platters can droop and distort over time leading to read head collision when spun up. In addition the lubricants used on the spindles tends to seize if it isn't given a workout on a regular basis.

My recommendation is to spin up any hard drives at least once every 6 months and store them on their sides.

Barry J. Weckesser · December 4th, 2009, 10:43 AM

Alister

Thanks for your advice, I have purchased hard drive plastic storage cases that stand on end just like books in a bookshelf so that should suffice. As I fill up my present hard drives, I am firing them up around every month or so but will certainly keep in mind about regular use of the drives once they are filled. I had wondered about what would be the proper protocol and appreciate your input.

Mark Job · December 4th, 2009, 10:49 AM

Hi Alister:
I can confirm what you are saying about HDD's. We are using a DDS 4 HP Tape Library for our main video backup precisely for this reason. If you take note most external drives have their internal HDD's mounted North South on their sides.

Off Topic:
Alister, I had an opportunity to check out a storm chase video you made a few nights ago. You are nuts man ! This is a very good way to die ;-) I'm surprised the RFD alone didn't bend your lens mount ! Still you shot some amazing footage. I felt sorry for the folks in that small town as you raced past to get ahead of what looked like an F 4 Tornado.

December 1st, 2009, 10:35 AM	#1
Paul Inglis Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: British Isles Posts: 415	Archiving Native nanoFLASH Files I thought a few might be interested in knowing that I have managed to successful write native nanoFLASH files to a Belkin Archival Gold BD-R. I shot the footage as; 100Mbps Long GoP MXF 1080/25p I then proceeded to load the footage back onto my timeline in Vegas Pro 8 and 9 without any problems. This is a method I am looking to use to archive my native files and as well as a master copy of complete edited documentaries. These disks aren’t cheap but have a shelf-life of 200 years though! I am using the inkjet printable versions with archival inks. Last edited by Paul Inglis; December 1st, 2009 at 11:57 AM.

December 1st, 2009, 11:00 AM	#2
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	I don't understand. The files are nothing but data to the computer. The internal bitrates, or what they were recording with are immaterial to a burner. That's the entire point of getting away from tape. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

December 2nd, 2009, 09:54 AM	#7
Justin Benn Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: York, UK. Posts: 224	Drobo Anyone considered Drobo for archiving? Jus.

December 4th, 2009, 10:33 AM	#12
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Barry and others using hard drives, do be aware that hard drives are more prone to failure if they are not used. A hard drive that sits on a shelf doing nothing will fail sooner than a drive being used regularly. A drive stored flat is the worst. The platters can droop and distort over time leading to read head collision when spun up. In addition the lubricants used on the spindles tends to seize if it isn't given a workout on a regular basis. My recommendation is to spin up any hard drives at least once every 6 months and store them on their sides. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

December 4th, 2009, 10:49 AM	#14
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	HDD's Work & Last Best On Their Sides Hi Alister: I can confirm what you are saying about HDD's. We are using a DDS 4 HP Tape Library for our main video backup precisely for this reason. If you take note most external drives have their internal HDD's mounted North South on their sides. Off Topic: Alister, I had an opportunity to check out a storm chase video you made a few nights ago. You are nuts man ! This is a very good way to die ;-) I'm surprised the RFD alone didn't bend your lens mount ! Still you shot some amazing footage. I felt sorry for the folks in that small town as you raced past to get ahead of what looked like an F 4 Tornado.

December 1st, 2009, 11:46 AM	#3
Paul Inglis Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: British Isles Posts: 415	Yes got what you're saying thanks!

December 2nd, 2009, 08:18 AM	#5
Ron Little Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pensacola Fl. Posts: 627	Barry, what docking station are you using? I am thinking about this one at New Egg. Thermaltake BlacX N0028USU External Hard Drive SATA Enclosure Docking Station 2.5" & 3.5" USB 2.0 $36.99

December 2nd, 2009, 09:36 AM	#6
Barry J. Weckesser Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Sarasota, Florida Posts: 427	Ron - I am using this one: Amazon.com: 2-BAY TRAYLESS USB 2.0/ ESATA RAID BOX: Electronics A little pricier but has the option of RAID 0,1 ,JBOD etc.

December 2nd, 2009, 10:03 AM	#8
Paul Inglis Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: British Isles Posts: 415	Hi Barry, I am immortal!!! :) I am trying to find a good archival back-up for finished projects and it accompanying native files. I do use RAID storage but have had a few hardware failures lately. On one drive I had the look-up table become corrupted and was impossible to recover the data. Another was a mechanic failure again it was impossible to recover the data. I think long-term 3.5” discs are better than 2.5” but they still fail. I use two different brands to back-up duplicates as it reduces the risk of both failing simultaneously. The other problem is when and how often to check. I will still use this method as a back-up but would like an alternative method to accompany them. I know that the nanoFLASH files can be put onto Sony Professional discs using a Sony PMW-U1 drive. But at this time I believe it is limited to certain bit rates (correct me if I’m wrong). The disks are as expensive as BDs plus an additional cost of the U1 reader is required. I think discs are more reliable than hard drives. I have also thought about the LTO4 tape with nanoFLASH files as an alternative to discs.

December 2nd, 2009, 11:29 AM	#9
Steve Brown Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 96	I'm hoping this won't be a problem for me in the near future, as I usually don't do post production. Normally, I hand the files to a producer and I'm done with it. Until my HDX900s are dead and gone, my DVC-Pro tape serves as my backup copy. Granted, it is not quite the same quality as the original nano files, but it would do in a pinch. In the future, I might have to look for a backup method, but I don't think it will be optical disc. Burned disks (as opposed to replicated discs) have known issues for failure. I think the issue has something to do with the dye or chemicals within the burnable discs. I don't know if BD-Rs have the same issues. Hard drive is reputed to be a better solution, although maybe not the best. Dual hard drive backup is probably recommended as Barry suggested. Everything I have seen points to LT04 as the best backup solution to date.

December 2nd, 2009, 12:05 PM	#10
Paul Inglis Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: British Isles Posts: 415	It’s the oxidisation that causes disc failure but the better quality ones can last 50 years or more. The Delkins I mentioned in my first post have a 200 year shelf life!

December 2nd, 2009, 03:13 PM	#11
Steve Brown Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 96	Paul, I have to say I haven't experienced any trouble with burned DVDs personally. I have heard from others who have had trouble though. From what I hear, the "shelf life" from even the respected manufacturers is not much more than lip service. It's enough to scare me into doing a duplicate of anything important. Does anyone know how stable solid state memory is? At some point, it might be practical to archive on CF cards... maybe only archiving the shots actually used in a production and backing up the rest on something like DVD.

December 4th, 2009, 10:43 AM	#13
Barry J. Weckesser Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Sarasota, Florida Posts: 427	Alister Thanks for your advice, I have purchased hard drive plastic storage cases that stand on end just like books in a bookshelf so that should suffice. As I fill up my present hard drives, I am firing them up around every month or so but will certainly keep in mind about regular use of the drives once they are filled. I had wondered about what would be the proper protocol and appreciate your input.