Cutting clips from CF cards for lossless playback at DVinfo.net

Paul Cronin · November 26th, 2009, 08:53 AM

I could not find the thread that talks about taking clips from the CF cards and cutting them with out loosing quality. The clips would be played back by HDMI from the Nano off the CF cards onto HDTV for presentation.

I have tried FC and Compressor but both reduce the bitrate to 50Mbps and I shot at 100Mbps and 220Mbps.

John Richard · November 26th, 2009, 09:53 AM

Could you set up an Uncompressed Project?

Paul Cronin · November 26th, 2009, 09:57 AM

John I tried that and the files are huge and it will have to render to make that happen.

My goal is to run the clips in their native XDCAM 422 100Mbps codec. Than on a second card run the I-Frame clips.

Dan Keaton · November 26th, 2009, 10:23 AM

Dear Paul,

I have been trying to find the post you mentioned. It is here somewhere.

If I remember correctly, just set up a ProRes timeline, drop your clips into the timeline.

If the clips are not modified, they will be output unchanged.

(I am doing this from memory)

Edit: Note: Aaron Newsome posted better advice, see Post #8, below.

Paul Cronin · November 26th, 2009, 11:21 AM

Hi Dan,

Happy Thanksgiving

I do have to modify the clips by cutting them and doing a string of clips. No effects or text just straight clips. I will look into this more on Friday and post my findings.

John Richard · November 26th, 2009, 11:47 AM

Tommy Schell posted a while back about a place for setting a FCP project that instructs it to handle footage natively except for clip modifications which will be handled as ProRes rendering.

But the same problem you are trying to overcome - output at only 50mbps will still occur.
When will the NLE's work correctly for output.

I wonder if Edius will properly output a full native quality MXF file. Not near my machine to try it.

Paul Cronin · November 26th, 2009, 12:00 PM

Thanks John,

Yea I can do it with out a problem at XDCAM 422 50Mbps output. But this is a talk that will highlight the 422 100Mbps footage compared to the 420 35Mbps clips.

Aaron Newsome · November 26th, 2009, 12:57 PM

Put the files on your FCP timeline, trim away the not wanted footage. Use Media Manager to create new clips at 100% quality, with junk removed, no re-compression.

Paul Cronin · November 27th, 2009, 09:23 AM

Aaron I will give that a try thanks.

In the past I have only used Media Manager for Project Backup onto external Raid 1 drive. Good to know it also has this option.

Paul Cronin · December 1st, 2009, 08:11 AM

Aaron I figured it out. Using a XDCAM 422 timeline there is not compression. Then Media Manager out as Copy with only "Delete Unused Media from selected items" checked. Played at full res 220Mbps in my test from nano out HDMI. But it only played the full clip. Now to try the cut one.

Paul Cronin · December 1st, 2009, 08:51 AM

Weird now it won't work. The Nano says 480p while playing and the clip won't run. The HDTV says no signal.

Still hunting for the problem.

See next post for answer to my problem.

Paul Cronin · December 1st, 2009, 11:08 AM

OK I found a great method that has stunning results for mixed format and bit rate play back from the Nano HDMI out. Thanks Mike for you help on the phone.

1. First I import the Nano clips into FC from my RAID drive still in Nano native .MOV format.

2. I cut the clips as needed and drop them on a time line. The timeline is set to XDCAM 422 50Mbps. This makes all the files the same format since you can not mix bit rates and formats on the CF card for playback. My clips are different bit rates and formats. Some are Long GOP 100 & 140Mbps, and some are I-Frame 200Mbps.

3. Export a QT movie with only straight cuts.

4. Use the Convergent Designs File Converter to convert to .MXF.

5. This step was my problem in the last post that a call to Mike at CD solved. I still had the old manual on my computer, my bad. Make Non-Fragmented Copy of the files all cut together from the FC QT now a .MXF file to the CF card as one file.

Result: Plays perfectly and from looking at individual files at different bit rates compared to the files exported at 137Mbps (nice surprise) I can not tell the difference on a 40" HDTV being played off the Nano HDMI out.

Paul Cronin · December 2nd, 2009, 03:59 PM

One more interesting find I found today with this process when putting files on the CF cards.

When you make the Non-Fragmented Copy make sure you have your CF card installed prior to starting. I found that if you put the files to be copied in the left box of the Filer Converter and then install the CF card and pick the file on the card you will have playback problems. Having the CF card installed prior to opening the Files Converter I did not have a problem

I repeated this problem three times to make sure it was really the case.

John Richard · December 3rd, 2009, 09:04 AM

Thanks Paul for all the work to find this workflow and then reporting the successful method.

Tommy Schell · December 3rd, 2009, 12:26 PM

Hi,

thanks for checking this. I will just add that during the file conversion, if the destination folder is a CF card volume, the conversion should be a non-fragmented write out to the card. This would eliminate the separate step of a non-fragmented copy to the card after conversion.
And then in this case one would want to follow the earlier mentioned tip of inserting the destination CF card before opening the converter.

Tommy Schell

November 26th, 2009, 08:53 AM	#1
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Cutting clips from CF cards for lossless playback I could not find the thread that talks about taking clips from the CF cards and cutting them with out loosing quality. The clips would be played back by HDMI from the Nano off the CF cards onto HDTV for presentation. I have tried FC and Compressor but both reduce the bitrate to 50Mbps and I shot at 100Mbps and 220Mbps. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

November 26th, 2009, 09:57 AM	#3
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	John I tried that and the files are huge and it will have to render to make that happen. My goal is to run the clips in their native XDCAM 422 100Mbps codec. Than on a second card run the I-Frame clips. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

November 26th, 2009, 10:23 AM	#4
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Paul, I have been trying to find the post you mentioned. It is here somewhere. If I remember correctly, just set up a ProRes timeline, drop your clips into the timeline. If the clips are not modified, they will be output unchanged. (I am doing this from memory) Edit: Note: Aaron Newsome posted better advice, see Post #8, below. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia Last edited by Dan Keaton; November 26th, 2009 at 03:36 PM.

November 26th, 2009, 11:21 AM	#5
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Hi Dan, Happy Thanksgiving I do have to modify the clips by cutting them and doing a string of clips. No effects or text just straight clips. I will look into this more on Friday and post my findings. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

November 26th, 2009, 12:00 PM	#7
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Thanks John, Yea I can do it with out a problem at XDCAM 422 50Mbps output. But this is a talk that will highlight the 422 100Mbps footage compared to the 420 35Mbps clips. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

November 26th, 2009, 09:53 AM	#2
John Richard Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Incline Village, Nevada Posts: 604	Could you set up an Uncompressed Project?

November 26th, 2009, 11:47 AM	#6
John Richard Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Incline Village, Nevada Posts: 604	Tommy Schell posted a while back about a place for setting a FCP project that instructs it to handle footage natively except for clip modifications which will be handled as ProRes rendering. But the same problem you are trying to overcome - output at only 50mbps will still occur. When will the NLE's work correctly for output. I wonder if Edius will properly output a full native quality MXF file. Not near my machine to try it.

November 26th, 2009, 12:57 PM	#8
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	Put the files on your FCP timeline, trim away the not wanted footage. Use Media Manager to create new clips at 100% quality, with junk removed, no re-compression.

November 27th, 2009, 09:23 AM	#9
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Aaron I will give that a try thanks. In the past I have only used Media Manager for Project Backup onto external Raid 1 drive. Good to know it also has this option. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

December 1st, 2009, 08:11 AM	#10
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Aaron I figured it out. Using a XDCAM 422 timeline there is not compression. Then Media Manager out as Copy with only "Delete Unused Media from selected items" checked. Played at full res 220Mbps in my test from nano out HDMI. But it only played the full clip. Now to try the cut one. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com Last edited by Paul Cronin; December 1st, 2009 at 08:36 AM. Reason: how to

December 1st, 2009, 08:51 AM	#11
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Weird now it won't work. The Nano says 480p while playing and the clip won't run. The HDTV says no signal. Still hunting for the problem. See next post for answer to my problem. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com Last edited by Paul Cronin; December 1st, 2009 at 11:09 AM. Reason: refer to next post

December 1st, 2009, 11:08 AM	#12
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	OK I found a great method that has stunning results for mixed format and bit rate play back from the Nano HDMI out. Thanks Mike for you help on the phone. 1. First I import the Nano clips into FC from my RAID drive still in Nano native .MOV format. 2. I cut the clips as needed and drop them on a time line. The timeline is set to XDCAM 422 50Mbps. This makes all the files the same format since you can not mix bit rates and formats on the CF card for playback. My clips are different bit rates and formats. Some are Long GOP 100 & 140Mbps, and some are I-Frame 200Mbps. 3. Export a QT movie with only straight cuts. 4. Use the Convergent Designs File Converter to convert to .MXF. 5. This step was my problem in the last post that a call to Mike at CD solved. I still had the old manual on my computer, my bad. Make Non-Fragmented Copy of the files all cut together from the FC QT now a .MXF file to the CF card as one file. Result: Plays perfectly and from looking at individual files at different bit rates compared to the files exported at 137Mbps (nice surprise) I can not tell the difference on a 40" HDTV being played off the Nano HDMI out. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

December 2nd, 2009, 03:59 PM	#13
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	One more interesting find I found today with this process when putting files on the CF cards. When you make the Non-Fragmented Copy make sure you have your CF card installed prior to starting. I found that if you put the files to be copied in the left box of the Filer Converter and then install the CF card and pick the file on the card you will have playback problems. Having the CF card installed prior to opening the Files Converter I did not have a problem I repeated this problem three times to make sure it was really the case. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

December 3rd, 2009, 09:04 AM	#14
John Richard Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Incline Village, Nevada Posts: 604	Thanks Paul for all the work to find this workflow and then reporting the successful method.

December 3rd, 2009, 12:26 PM	#15
Tommy Schell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 65	Hi, thanks for checking this. I will just add that during the file conversion, if the destination folder is a CF card volume, the conversion should be a non-fragmented write out to the card. This would eliminate the separate step of a non-fragmented copy to the card after conversion. And then in this case one would want to follow the earlier mentioned tip of inserting the destination CF card before opening the converter. Tommy Schell