8 bit or 10 bit. My thoughts.

Aaron Newsome · November 6th, 2009, 05:14 PM

C'mon Mark. It's all good fun. You know we're just gonna keep poking you until either get a new camera or make your own recorder.

I for one am poking until the new recorder is finished!

:-)

Mark Job · November 6th, 2009, 05:49 PM

Hi Aaron:

Yeah. Well poking I don't mind that :-) I need the pokes sometimes. More like you need to hit me with a baseball bat to get the SD card recorder out ! ;-) I'm trying to arrive at a freakin budget for this Winter's expenditure. We have to make the now three circuit boards and snap them (Bend them to fit) into our little box. The box is minimalist and is almost all screen (Kinda Apple-ish). When you record the screen becomes an HD @ full raster confidence monitor. The prototype will be first plastic, then once it all fits it gets disassembled and an aluminium box is custom machined to replace it. BTW, the first version of this recorder is 10 bit uncompressed due to financial considerations. We have to decide on how much and how I will raise the big cash if we go into codec territory to offer compressed resolutions. Right now this is a big "IF" for the project. Folks like Alister will expect some sort of reliable compressed format. I originally wanted my own version of mp4, but right now I'm too cheap to pay anything extra to any consortiums unless we have to.

Aaron Newsome · November 6th, 2009, 06:04 PM

Sounds good Mark. If you lived closer, I'd probably be trying to help build this thing. Oh yeah, and probably be going broke doing it. Working the day job(s) in order to finance such a beast :-)

Post a motto up in your work lab: "Beholden to no one"

Gotta love self financing,... the ups and the downs.

Mark Job · November 6th, 2009, 06:21 PM

Hi Aaron:
I wished you lived closer so we could use your amazing Viper camera ! I want to test our 4:4:4 10 bit and we will probably throw in 12 bit because the chip can do it as well with your camera.

Aaron Newsome · November 6th, 2009, 08:38 PM

In that case then, I'll make a promise. You get a box working and me and the Viper will fly up there to shoot it.

Mark Job · November 6th, 2009, 10:03 PM

Hi Aaron:
OK. Cool. I will let you know. Please be patient, as we are very far from having an assembled and functional prototype to test with at this time.

Mark Job · November 8th, 2009, 11:43 AM

Hi friends:
In an article on post production 8 vs 10 bits and uncompressed versus compression by well known and very well respected videographer and post production expert, Mr. Ron Shook states the following.....

"You might wonder, “If my post chain starts at 8bit on the tape and ends with an edit master 8bit tape, what’s the big deal?” Well, in the first place, it's not a huge deal and in many cases we will see very little practical difference. But we are far more likely to have no difference whatsoever, if the middle of the chain is **processed at a higher bit depth.** This fact points to some rules that I consider to be truisms. Once you take quality away at any point in the postproduction chain you'll never get it back. Stacking quality compromises on top of quality compromises can result in even more than simple additive quality loss. **And…, the best defense against losing quality is a bit of what on the surface might seem like overkill.**" (** Emphasis mine)

,,,,,This is the idea I've been trying to get across from the very beginning. The whole 10 bit thingy (like uncompressed) is not to increase quality, rather, it's to avoid cumulative overall reduction in quality from the post process.

Aaron Newsome · November 8th, 2009, 03:56 PM

I've never said 8bit start to end. I do acquisition in an affordable format but instantly convert those to higher quality files to work with. My post workflow is VERY high quality.

Mark Job · November 8th, 2009, 04:49 PM

Hi Aaron:
Yup. In Ron Shook's article he discusses exactly at what point in the production workflow quality is taken away, and it's at the NLE stage in the journey. Ron states that if you captured your footage at a 3 to 1 compression ratio, then the only way to avoid recompression and possible concantanation is to output as uncompressed only. In fact I have seen a great deal of finished projects on cable specialty channels which show the tell tale signs of quality loss due to too much compression, and originating in 4:2:0.

1. Anemic colors

2. A perceptable granular affect across the overall image. (Looks like slight snow)

3. Slightly anemic blacks.

Ron states in his article that Discovery Channel US demands uncompressed post ! I think you can get highly excellent results using HDV origination, but you have to really pay very close attention in post and bump up to uncompressed output, as well as color correct in 10 bit. Also, Primary color correction is by no means close to enough to finesse HDV into looking right for broadcast. CC is where Avid Media Composer coloapses dramatically. FCS comes into play big time with Color. This is primary & secondary CC at its best to me. Discovery Canada is using Flash XDR's for acquisitions with Long GOP 50 Mbps. XDR's Long GOP is full raster and 4:2:2 color space, but I don't know how they are posting their show for broadcast. (??) I would like to know what their post situation is for that show.

Concantanation is an interesting subject and what causes it. This seems to be something networks fear the most.

Mark Job · November 8th, 2009, 06:47 PM

Hey Alister or Someone who lives in Great Britain and works for BBC:

Can you tell us what the broadcast specification is for video productions shot for broadcst on the BBC ?

Rafael Amador · November 8th, 2009, 09:48 PM

Hi mark,
I think that you can find them in the website of Alister.
rafael

Rafael Amador · November 8th, 2009, 09:56 PM

Hi Mark,

Most of the folks, including my self, are working like that. Acquire as you can and make the rest of the way in Uncompress to avoid re-compressions. This is very feasible. Acquiring directly in 10b not so much.

rafael

Mark Job · November 8th, 2009, 10:11 PM

Hi Rafael:
Yes, even with FCP 7.0, if you capture your 8 bit Nano or XDR Long GOP compressed as an uncompressed 10 bit project (If your computer can play HD Uncompressed that is) and you edit normally with transitions, lower thirds, CC, etc, then output as uncompressed, your program should not attain any additional compression. It may not look *higher in Quality,* but it also *won't loose quality.* I am assuming this kind of approach is what is ment by Discovery Channel's stipulation for uncompressed post. - Not necessatily uncompressed image acquisition.

Alister Chapman · November 9th, 2009, 01:52 AM

That article is 4 years old and things have moved on. Discovery no longer stipulate uncompressed editing. You can use DNxHD or ProRes.

Mark, I really question your understanding of codecs and compression. 4:2:0 or 4:1:1 sampling will not in itself lead to "Anemic" colours. The sampling effects the chroma resolution not the colour depth. Colours will be just as vibrant.

Over compression will not lead to a "snow" like look. What you will see is macro blocking. Take a noisy picture and over compress it and the noise is softened or even reduced by the compressor as it softens the picture to reduce the amount of data to be recorded. In bad cases or multiple compression passes the image will degrade due to concatenation of the macro blocks.

There is no reason why black should not be black in even the most highly compressed codec, even a 2 bit codec would show black as black. This is more likely down to sloppy setup somewhere in the production chain and is likely not a "fault" with the codec.

No one here is debating the advantages of using uncompressed or 10bit in post. It's the practicalities and cost implications of acquiring 10 bit uncompressed that's in question.

The BBC's official minimum standard for HD broadcast is 50 Mb/s minimum bit rate with 1/2" or larger sensors. There is much confusion at the moment as to whether you can get dispensations to use the XDCAM EX cameras at 35Mb/s. The BBC won't allow cameras with sensors smaller than 1/2" due to sensor noise and diffraction issues.

Rafael Amador · November 9th, 2009, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Job

Hi Rafael:
Yes, even with FCP 7.0, if you capture your 8 bit Nano or XDR Long GOP compressed as an uncompressed 10 bit project (If your computer can play HD Uncompressed that is) and you edit normally with transitions, lower thirds, CC, etc, then output as uncompressed, your program should not attain any additional compression. It may not look *higher in Quality,* but it also *won't loose quality.* I am assuming this kind of approach is what is ment by Discovery Channel's stipulation for uncompressed post. - Not necessatily uncompressed image acquisition.

Hi Mark,
I prefer to work native in FC, whatever the stuff I work with. I need RT.
From Color some times I export in 10b (when not in Prores).
Then I send back to FC or AE.
As intermediate codec is for sure the only way to ensure no loses, but I can not dream in doing the whole way in 10b Unc. For me is OK when I'm working with a reduced amount of footage, and I don't need RT anymore.
Mark, by definition 10b can hold more of the original picture but the headaches and investment to get that theoretical better quality, do not worth the effort, from my point of view.
rafael

November 6th, 2009, 05:49 PM	#77
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Keep Poking :-) Hi Aaron: Yeah. Well poking I don't mind that :-) I need the pokes sometimes. More like you need to hit me with a baseball bat to get the SD card recorder out ! ;-) I'm trying to arrive at a freakin budget for this Winter's expenditure. We have to make the now three circuit boards and snap them (Bend them to fit) into our little box. The box is minimalist and is almost all screen (Kinda Apple-ish). When you record the screen becomes an HD @ full raster confidence monitor. The prototype will be first plastic, then once it all fits it gets disassembled and an aluminium box is custom machined to replace it. BTW, the first version of this recorder is 10 bit uncompressed due to financial considerations. We have to decide on how much and how I will raise the big cash if we go into codec territory to offer compressed resolutions. Right now this is a big "IF" for the project. Folks like Alister will expect some sort of reliable compressed format. I originally wanted my own version of mp4, but right now I'm too cheap to pay anything extra to any consortiums unless we have to.

November 8th, 2009, 11:43 AM	#82
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	A Salient Point for 10 bit in the middle of your post chain Hi friends: In an article on post production 8 vs 10 bits and uncompressed versus compression by well known and very well respected videographer and post production expert, Mr. Ron Shook states the following..... "You might wonder, “If my post chain starts at 8bit on the tape and ends with an edit master 8bit tape, what’s the big deal?” Well, in the first place, it's not a huge deal and in many cases we will see very little practical difference. But we are far more likely to have no difference whatsoever, if the middle of the chain is processed at a higher bit depth. This fact points to some rules that I consider to be truisms. Once you take quality away at any point in the postproduction chain you'll never get it back. Stacking quality compromises on top of quality compromises can result in even more than simple additive quality loss. And…, the best defense against losing quality is a bit of what on the surface might seem like overkill." (** Emphasis mine) ,,,,,This is the idea I've been trying to get across from the very beginning. The whole 10 bit thingy (like uncompressed) is not to increase quality, rather, it's to avoid cumulative overall reduction in quality from the post process.

November 8th, 2009, 04:49 PM	#84
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	The reasons why many professionals start in 10 bit uncompressed Hi Aaron: Yup. In Ron Shook's article he discusses exactly at what point in the production workflow quality is taken away, and it's at the NLE stage in the journey. Ron states that if you captured your footage at a 3 to 1 compression ratio, then the only way to avoid recompression and possible concantanation is to output as uncompressed only. In fact I have seen a great deal of finished projects on cable specialty channels which show the tell tale signs of quality loss due to too much compression, and originating in 4:2:0. 1. Anemic colors 2. A perceptable granular affect across the overall image. (Looks like slight snow) 3. Slightly anemic blacks. Ron states in his article that Discovery Channel US demands uncompressed post ! I think you can get highly excellent results using HDV origination, but you have to really pay very close attention in post and bump up to uncompressed output, as well as color correct in 10 bit. Also, Primary color correction is by no means close to enough to finesse HDV into looking right for broadcast. CC is where Avid Media Composer coloapses dramatically. FCS comes into play big time with Color. This is primary & secondary CC at its best to me. Discovery Canada is using Flash XDR's for acquisitions with Long GOP 50 Mbps. XDR's Long GOP is full raster and 4:2:2 color space, but I don't know how they are posting their show for broadcast. (??) I would like to know what their post situation is for that show. Concantanation is an interesting subject and what causes it. This seems to be something networks fear the most.

November 8th, 2009, 06:47 PM	#85
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	What is BBC's Format Spec for Broadcasting ? Hey Alister or Someone who lives in Great Britain and works for BBC: Can you tell us what the broadcast specification is for video productions shot for broadcst on the BBC ?

November 9th, 2009, 01:52 AM	#89
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	That article is 4 years old and things have moved on. Discovery no longer stipulate uncompressed editing. You can use DNxHD or ProRes. Mark, I really question your understanding of codecs and compression. 4:2:0 or 4:1:1 sampling will not in itself lead to "Anemic" colours. The sampling effects the chroma resolution not the colour depth. Colours will be just as vibrant. Over compression will not lead to a "snow" like look. What you will see is macro blocking. Take a noisy picture and over compress it and the noise is softened or even reduced by the compressor as it softens the picture to reduce the amount of data to be recorded. In bad cases or multiple compression passes the image will degrade due to concatenation of the macro blocks. There is no reason why black should not be black in even the most highly compressed codec, even a 2 bit codec would show black as black. This is more likely down to sloppy setup somewhere in the production chain and is likely not a "fault" with the codec. No one here is debating the advantages of using uncompressed or 10bit in post. It's the practicalities and cost implications of acquiring 10 bit uncompressed that's in question. The BBC's official minimum standard for HD broadcast is 50 Mb/s minimum bit rate with 1/2" or larger sensors. There is much confusion at the moment as to whether you can get dispensations to use the XDCAM EX cameras at 35Mb/s. The BBC won't allow cameras with sensors smaller than 1/2" due to sensor noise and diffraction issues. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

November 6th, 2009, 05:14 PM	#76
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	C'mon Mark. It's all good fun. You know we're just gonna keep poking you until either get a new camera or make your own recorder. I for one am poking until the new recorder is finished! :-)

November 6th, 2009, 06:04 PM	#78
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	Sounds good Mark. If you lived closer, I'd probably be trying to help build this thing. Oh yeah, and probably be going broke doing it. Working the day job(s) in order to finance such a beast :-) Post a motto up in your work lab: "Beholden to no one" Gotta love self financing,... the ups and the downs.

November 6th, 2009, 06:21 PM	#79
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Aaron: I wished you lived closer so we could use your amazing Viper camera ! I want to test our 4:4:4 10 bit and we will probably throw in 12 bit because the chip can do it as well with your camera.

November 6th, 2009, 08:38 PM	#80
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	In that case then, I'll make a promise. You get a box working and me and the Viper will fly up there to shoot it.

November 6th, 2009, 10:03 PM	#81
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Aaron: OK. Cool. I will let you know. Please be patient, as we are very far from having an assembled and functional prototype to test with at this time.

November 8th, 2009, 03:56 PM	#83
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	I've never said 8bit start to end. I do acquisition in an affordable format but instantly convert those to higher quality files to work with. My post workflow is VERY high quality.

November 8th, 2009, 09:48 PM	#86
Rafael Amador Major Player Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Vientiane (Lao PDR) Posts: 349	Hi mark, I think that you can find them in the website of Alister. rafael

November 8th, 2009, 09:56 PM	#87
Rafael Amador Major Player Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Vientiane (Lao PDR) Posts: 349	Hi Mark, Most of the folks, including my self, are working like that. Acquire as you can and make the rest of the way in Uncompress to avoid re-compressions. This is very feasible. Acquiring directly in 10b not so much. rafael

November 8th, 2009, 10:11 PM	#88
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Rafael: Yes, even with FCP 7.0, if you capture your 8 bit Nano or XDR Long GOP compressed as an uncompressed 10 bit project (If your computer can play HD Uncompressed that is) and you edit normally with transitions, lower thirds, CC, etc, then output as uncompressed, your program should not attain any additional compression. It may not look higher in Quality, but it also won't loose quality. I am assuming this kind of approach is what is ment by Discovery Channel's stipulation for uncompressed post. - Not necessatily uncompressed image acquisition.