Painful Lession: If Only I knew ! at DVinfo.net

Mark Job · October 10th, 2009, 10:47 AM

Hi Friends:
Upon reading (The Latest) XDR Manual in the section referring to NLE support, there is a caveate to Avid Media Composer support with Long GOP MXF files, which I don't think is getting the proper emphasis it deserves. Clips recorded at 100 Mbps data rate are listed as only being "partially supported," and "sometimes does not display single frames from the timeline (gives a buffer overflow message)."

....May I humbly suggest this reference be changed to *is not supported ?* I've been tearing my hair out on an interview peice that is repleate with this very error, and not only this error, one *cannot* also export the completed (edited) sequence out of AMC to anything ! The thing which drove me the most crazy, is the fact that the other sit down interview I shot works fine in AMC and is exportable to whatever format you need (It was recorded in 50 Mbps)

....Looks like the workaround is to go re-edit the whole malfunctioning sequence in FCP 7.0 !

....I think it is not a good idea to claim that the XDR/Nano clips are supported in Avid Media Composer without considerably more testing. Has Convergent Design tested clips with the new AMC 4.0.2 ????

Mike Schell · October 10th, 2009, 12:41 PM

Hi Mark-
Sorry you had problems, but this has been in the Flash XDR / nanoFlash manual for quite some time. We have not hidden this issue with Avid and Long-GOP.

Avid does work well with 50 Mbps Long-GOP, which is the native XDCAM 422 format. It also plays all the I-Frame only files, even up to 220 Mbps.

Avid does have sample files from all our formats and is working on full compatibility in a future release.

Best-

Mark Job · October 10th, 2009, 07:10 PM

Hi Mike:
Uh yeah, but there is a *BIG* difference between saying, "partially supported," and the actual reality that Long GOP @ 100 Mbit frankly doesn't work at all.

Vito DeFilippo · October 11th, 2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Job

....Looks like the workaround is to go re-edit the whole malfunctioning sequence in FCP 7.0 !

Mark, couldn't you just transcode to DNxHD before your export? Simple to do to the sequence right in Avid.

Mark Job · October 11th, 2009, 03:56 PM

Hi Vito:
Nope ! In the versions of Avid Media Composer below 3.5.x you cannot get transcode to DNxHD to work, because I shot the clips @ 100 Mbps, and when you import clips which are Long GOP at this rate, then all hell breaks lose in Avid MC ! What I will try to do now is do a simple 1:1 export of the Long GOP XDCAM HD 100 Mb clips as a Long GOP HDV clip. This might work because XDCAM HD and HDV are both Long GOP based formats, but hey. who knows ? ! I can confirm that MC 3.5.4 and the new 4.0.2 handle the Long GOP formats in a very different manner now. It is no longer necessary to do a video mix down or any transcode to get HDV or XDCAM HD based clips back out of Avid.

.....The other possible workaround is to re-edit in FCP 7.0. Can anyone reading this who's using FCP 7.0 as their main editing application please confirm if XDR clips shot in Long GOP 100 Mbps edit and output OK ?

Dan Keaton · October 11th, 2009, 05:10 PM

Dear Mark,

We may be able to assist.

If you send us the clips, or upload them to our server, we could play them out of one Flash XDR into another Flash XDR at 50 Mbps, or any other mode/format/etc. you choose.

Mark Job · October 11th, 2009, 05:35 PM

Hi Dan:
This is a good idea Dan. Thank you. I think I will go straight over to my FCP 7.0 iMAC and edit there before I resort to the big file exchange. Can you confirm if FCP 7.0 can handle XDR files in Long GOP @ 100 Mb ?

Aaron Newsome · October 11th, 2009, 06:03 PM

Yes it does.

Mark Job · October 11th, 2009, 06:21 PM

Hi Aaron:
I'm assuming you're referring to FC 7.0, Well this is good news. Thanks for the confirmation.

Dan Keaton · October 11th, 2009, 08:42 PM

Dear Mark,

Yes, I can confirm that Final Cut Pro handles our Long-GOP files, as well as our I-Frame Only modes.

Your final render options are limited to the modes that Final Cut Pro supports.

This, however, does include full uncompressed which can then be encoded by the Flash XDR / nanoFlash to any of the modes we support.

This, of course, depends on your system, specifically if you can output HD-SDI or HDMI.

Mark Job · October 12th, 2009, 08:48 AM

Hi Dan:
You confirm *what* exactly in FCP 7.0 ?? You write it handles your files. OK. It handles *all* your files ? Specifically, does it handle your *Long GOP @ 100 Mb files* ? This is the deciding factor and what I need to know.

Dan Keaton · October 12th, 2009, 09:21 AM

Dear Mark,

Yes, to be specific, all of our Long-GOP and I-Frame Only modes work in Final Cut Pro.

As always, your final render options are limited to the options available in Final Cut Pro.

Final Cut Pro does an excellent job in working with our files.

Personally, I have not worked with Final Cut Pro 7.0. I have every reason to believe that it will work as well as Final Cut Pro 6.0.4 or higher does, which is excellent.

Mark Job · October 12th, 2009, 09:43 AM

Hi Dan:
OK. Very good. FCP here I come !

Grinner Hester · October 13th, 2009, 07:44 AM

;)
Nobody sells more copies of FCP than Avid does today.

Mark Job · October 13th, 2009, 08:40 AM

Hey Grinner:
Avid is by far a superior editing tool, but many folks can't get their head around its completely different editing paradigm. Avid is NOT intuitive in ANY way that's for sure ! However, once you do learn it, then your ability to cut a mjor movie or Tv spot takes a quantum leap. Avid's price, attitude of company and useless half baked finishing tools are what sells FCP to folks. FCP is easy to use, very intuitive, and has a suite of excellent, and in my opinion, far superior finishing tools. Media Composer 4.0.2 is supposed to be a quantum leap in this direction as well, but I won't know until I get my upgrade next week. We use both FCP 7.0 and Avid in our production company.

October 10th, 2009, 10:47 AM	#1
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Painful Lession: If Only I knew ! Hi Friends: Upon reading (The Latest) XDR Manual in the section referring to NLE support, there is a caveate to Avid Media Composer support with Long GOP MXF files, which I don't think is getting the proper emphasis it deserves. Clips recorded at 100 Mbps data rate are listed as only being "partially supported," and "sometimes does not display single frames from the timeline (gives a buffer overflow message)." ....May I humbly suggest this reference be changed to is not supported ? I've been tearing my hair out on an interview peice that is repleate with this very error, and not only this error, one cannot also export the completed (edited) sequence out of AMC to anything ! The thing which drove me the most crazy, is the fact that the other sit down interview I shot works fine in AMC and is exportable to whatever format you need (It was recorded in 50 Mbps) ....Looks like the workaround is to go re-edit the whole malfunctioning sequence in FCP 7.0 ! ....I think it is not a good idea to claim that the XDR/Nano clips are supported in Avid Media Composer without considerably more testing. Has Convergent Design tested clips with the new AMC 4.0.2 ????

October 10th, 2009, 12:41 PM	#2
Mike Schell Convergent Design Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 869	Hi Mark- Sorry you had problems, but this has been in the Flash XDR / nanoFlash manual for quite some time. We have not hidden this issue with Avid and Long-GOP. Avid does work well with 50 Mbps Long-GOP, which is the native XDCAM 422 format. It also plays all the I-Frame only files, even up to 220 Mbps. Avid does have sample files from all our formats and is working on full compatibility in a future release. Best- __________________ Mike Schell Convergent Design

October 10th, 2009, 07:10 PM	#3
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Mike: Uh yeah, but there is a BIG difference between saying, "partially supported," and the actual reality that Long GOP @ 100 Mbit frankly doesn't work at all. Last edited by Mark Job; October 10th, 2009 at 11:37 PM. Reason: For clarity

October 11th, 2009, 05:10 PM	#6
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, We may be able to assist. If you send us the clips, or upload them to our server, we could play them out of one Flash XDR into another Flash XDR at 50 Mbps, or any other mode/format/etc. you choose. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

October 11th, 2009, 05:35 PM	#7
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	XDR to XDR = Indeed a Cool Idea Hi Dan: This is a good idea Dan. Thank you. I think I will go straight over to my FCP 7.0 iMAC and edit there before I resort to the big file exchange. Can you confirm if FCP 7.0 can handle XDR files in Long GOP @ 100 Mb ?

October 11th, 2009, 03:56 PM	#5
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Vito: Nope ! In the versions of Avid Media Composer below 3.5.x you cannot get transcode to DNxHD to work, because I shot the clips @ 100 Mbps, and when you import clips which are Long GOP at this rate, then all hell breaks lose in Avid MC ! What I will try to do now is do a simple 1:1 export of the Long GOP XDCAM HD 100 Mb clips as a Long GOP HDV clip. This might work because XDCAM HD and HDV are both Long GOP based formats, but hey. who knows ? ! I can confirm that MC 3.5.4 and the new 4.0.2 handle the Long GOP formats in a very different manner now. It is no longer necessary to do a video mix down or any transcode to get HDV or XDCAM HD based clips back out of Avid. .....The other possible workaround is to re-edit in FCP 7.0. Can anyone reading this who's using FCP 7.0 as their main editing application please confirm if XDR clips shot in Long GOP 100 Mbps edit and output OK ?

October 11th, 2009, 06:03 PM	#8
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	Yes it does.

October 11th, 2009, 06:21 PM	#9
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Aaron: I'm assuming you're referring to FC 7.0, Well this is good news. Thanks for the confirmation.

October 11th, 2009, 08:42 PM	#10
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, Yes, I can confirm that Final Cut Pro handles our Long-GOP files, as well as our I-Frame Only modes. Your final render options are limited to the modes that Final Cut Pro supports. This, however, does include full uncompressed which can then be encoded by the Flash XDR / nanoFlash to any of the modes we support. This, of course, depends on your system, specifically if you can output HD-SDI or HDMI. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

October 12th, 2009, 08:48 AM	#11
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Dan: You confirm what exactly in FCP 7.0 ?? You write it handles your files. OK. It handles all your files ? Specifically, does it handle your Long GOP @ 100 Mb files ? This is the deciding factor and what I need to know.

October 12th, 2009, 09:21 AM	#12
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, Yes, to be specific, all of our Long-GOP and I-Frame Only modes work in Final Cut Pro. As always, your final render options are limited to the options available in Final Cut Pro. Final Cut Pro does an excellent job in working with our files. Personally, I have not worked with Final Cut Pro 7.0. I have every reason to believe that it will work as well as Final Cut Pro 6.0.4 or higher does, which is excellent. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

October 12th, 2009, 09:43 AM	#13
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Dan: OK. Very good. FCP here I come !

October 13th, 2009, 07:44 AM	#14
Grinner Hester Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: services world-wide Posts: 118	;) Nobody sells more copies of FCP than Avid does today.

October 13th, 2009, 08:40 AM	#15
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hey Grinner: Avid is by far a superior editing tool, but many folks can't get their head around its completely different editing paradigm. Avid is NOT intuitive in ANY way that's for sure ! However, once you do learn it, then your ability to cut a mjor movie or Tv spot takes a quantum leap. Avid's price, attitude of company and useless half baked finishing tools are what sells FCP to folks. FCP is easy to use, very intuitive, and has a suite of excellent, and in my opinion, far superior finishing tools. Media Composer 4.0.2 is supposed to be a quantum leap in this direction as well, but I won't know until I get my upgrade next week. We use both FCP 7.0 and Avid in our production company.