Painful Lession: If Only I knew !

[Grinner Hester]

As a staffer and a freelancer, I never had a beef with Avid. As an owner, man they started shooting themselves in the foot when they killed the meridien line and simply havn't stopped. Ten years ago, the made sure they led the industry. Today, they seem to go out of their way to hand over profits like GM does to imports.
I know what MC 4.0.2 is SPUPPOSE to do but I learned the hard way what Adrenaline was suppose to do too. Want one? I'll give it to ya for $22k.... half of what I paid for it.
It's kind of funny. I was on Media Composer version 4 in 1994. Kind of speaks volumes where they are today, doesn't it? When competition releases an upgrade, it's more bells and whistles. Now, when Avid releases an update it's a list of bug fixes closer to what was purchased that ironicly introduce new bugs. Having their clientele pay to beta test for em is no way to stay in business. I anticipate a sell or merger in their near future.

[Mark Job]

Hey Grinner:
Yup, Avid is a company which listens to only a very small group of Academy Award Winning Editors in Hollywood and simply ignores the rest of the world ;-) We were promised Canon HDV 24 F as a *Free* patch 4 1/2 years ago and only got it as *Paid* upfrade to 3.5 !! When the Titanic director asked them for 3D editing capability, they then released such 5 weeks later ! I get angry all over again every time I think of that !

Canon 24 F = 41/2 years.

3D request from Hollywood Director = 5 weeks.

You do the math :-)

[Grinner Hester]

The math has been very easy to do here in the last 3 years. I continue to offer concessions in sessions due to down time BECAUSE I have an Avid, not because I don't. I didn't have to do this years ago. I simply can't afford their handicap much longer. As you see the industry evolve to FCP, there are many reasons why.

[Mark Job]

Hey Grinner:
Well, one reason is the much cheaper and plentiful options you have hardwarewise with FCP 7.0 versus Avid's way over priced *proprietary* hardware.

[Grinner Hester]

another is stability.
then there is capability...

Yes, price has something to do with it. FCP's doing what ya paid for has much to do with it's rising success. I summed it up well earlier...nobody sells more copies of FCP than Avid today. It was as easy as announcing they were in growing pain stages instead of misleading their market.
In my humble opinion, of course. Your milage may vary. I didn't work on Titanic. I'm trying to keep my own little boat afloat while competing with folks in my market who paid less than I did but have more capabilities from their suite. That's tough for any artist to swallow.
In the early 90's, I had folks call and would throw out the good ole A buzzword... "hi, do you have an Avid?"
I'd respond, "well no but we have a..."
(click)
By '94 it was almost a requirement and I did indeed evolve from a Dvision Pro to Media Composer 4 to enhance our linear suites. Today it's quite the opposite. If they ask at all (and they seldom do anymore) It's more like "ew... Avid huh? Well can you do it for $150 an hour instead of your regular rate?"
oi vay.
The adrenaline phase was not good on Avid and their revolving door with execs has left em in baaad shape. Here I sit a crossroads... roll the dice on Avid one more time for 10 grand to get their latest and greatest upgrade or put that money toward what I don't have to gamble on. That's where we are at, man. I have no pitty for em. They have made their bed.

[Mark Job]

Hey Grinner:
I would have to say it isn't anymore about some kind of brand loyalty, it's all about what is the best tool for editing - but here's where everything heads South !

1. IMHO, Avid *is* the best *cutting* tool.

2. IMHO, Avid is the *worst finishing* tool, because it was designed from its very inception to be a replacement for film cutting. Thus, Avid is by nature following a traditional "off-line" editing approach ready for match back film editing, but fewer and fewer post houses in film work this way anymore.
3. Avid also assums you are sending your picture edit off to a seperate sound editor with a Digidesign Pro Tools Workstation.

4. Let me state for the record that if you can afford to set yourself up in post in this manner, then it is post production Heaven, but I would say 90 % of the smaller boutique style post operators are not setup in this manner and require a wholistic solution.

* Nowardays we are asked not only to cut, but to animate, color correct, author DVD, mix audio to at least Dolby Digital 5.1 AC3, and web encode. Avid was not setup to do this easily, but now they are working on a studio suite. If you learn all the keyboard shortcuts for Media Composer, then you can fly on it and bang out Tv spots and half hour Tv shows in 15 minutes flat. I have watched Avid editors who work in local network television do so right in front of me.

** I need the XDR clips to all be accepted in AMC in MXF at any data rate for a fast cut and then we do a 1:1 QT output which simply strips off the .MXF and does a straight copy to QT and finish everything in FCS for the DVD SD & Blu-ray Master and web encode.

FCS 7.0 is really the place to do all of these operations in one workstation.

[Grinner Hester]

I agree with all the above.
I do it all on one station as a one man band...which is much of my gripe today. I should be able to do it all in one app today. Because Avid has not upgraded it's DVD in 15 years, it seems to me the best thing for em to do is to work out an agreement with Adobe that utilized AE as Avid's DVE...within the app itself. I mean, we all keep it open in every session anyway.. same with Photoshop. They keep adding things like marquee and Avid FX but anything you'd go in there for (bevelling, motion blur, ect) take MUCH longer to futs with and render than just busting em out in After Effects so they are a mute point and a feeble attempt. (again, in my opinion)
Over the years I have learned many ways to cheat audio effects within Avid and while I take those tricks for granted, man I shouldn't have to get so creative to do such common tasks.
Avid is only the best cutting tool for me because I know it so much better than any other NLE. Speed is important and I purchased based on comfort factor for my, and my client base that is use to Avid's workflows.
In the end, it should now be assumed we are making finished products. It's simply not the 90s anymore. It's obvious Avid has never had an editor as a consultant on their tools for editors. That is almost comical.

almost.

[Mark Job]

Hi Grinner:
Yup. Love Avid or hate it make no mistake, AMC is the bane of all commercial Tv Network Post and Hollywood Studio Post. This is mainly because of the superior media mangement and collaboration possible (Even from multiple workstations in multiple countries), which simply is not there with FCP. - At least not yet. Avid has a special pluggin for AE, which opens it inside the timeline I do believe. I just purchased AE CS4 but I run it on my iMac with FCS 7.0.

Avid just upgraded their Avid DVD by Sonic app to 6.1 from 5.7. It is supposed to be better. Avid MC will allow you to add a Meta Track to your Timeline, which allows you to add chapter points and thumbnail pictures for the buttons in Avid DVD. This actually works, but the workflow is so funky and clunky that most editors simply give up and use another application to author DVD's with.

[Grinner Hester]

Originally Posted by Mark Job

Love Avid or hate it make no mistake, AMC is the bane of all commercial Tv Network Post and Hollywood Studio Post.

we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. While it use to be the case, it's simply not anymore. Surf some job sites... man, you'll see a lot more fcp gigs today than Avid gigs. They are fadin' fast and I'm not seeing much attempt at altering that. Again, I imagine selling or merging will be what we'll see, like it or not.

[Mark Job]

Hi Grinner:
For independent film and Tv projects FCP wins hands down. For all TV Network, film studio work, then it's Avid Media Composer all of the way. For the independent everyday working freelance editor, then FCP is where the jobs are. Why do you think we also invested in FCS 7.0 ? For anything higher end, then it's still Avid MC.

i.e. Entertainment Tonight. Anything HBO. PBS.

The discovery Channel will edit on anything ! Especially Discovery Channel Canada. Up here they shoot HDV, DVCPRO 100 and Flash XDR.

[Lance Librandi]

Hi Mark,
You nearly talked me into Avid Media Composer for uncompressed work flow until I saw how you were effected on the bleeding edge. I will put up with FCP.

Cheers

[Mark Job]

Hi Lance:
If you buy, then go AMC 4.0.2. The editor is perfect, but for finishing I would still suggest FCS apps like DVD Studio Pro and Soundtrack Pro to do your sound mix on. Export a 1:1 resolution QT Movie and AMC will do a simple copying process, strip off the .MXF, and take that QT Movie into Soundtrack Pro, then export into DVD Studio Pro and viola ! You're there. You can also use FCS's Compressor for all your web encode needs. Sony Vegas is also another way to finish, as it has a killer SD DVD authoring component.

[John Mitchell]

Mark - why don't you simply transcode your footage into DnxHD? You can do this within the Avid application and retain all your edits. DnxHd is in an intraframe codec and much easier to edit and playback.

Oh sorry - didn't read the whole thread - OK, try this - export all your source clips as QT refs and use an external transcoder to convert them to DnxHD. Then batch import the resulting clip over the top. You could try Sorenson? or procoder or Compressor depending on what you have...

[Mark Job]

Hi John:
Yes. I use DNxHD 220 X often, but as a general rule, I try an avoid any transcoding or recompressing of the original footage I edit. Although I must add that the Avid DNxHD is a visually lossless compression codec. I prefer to use QT Ref file where I can, or a simple QT Movie Export @ 1:1 resolution, so there is *only* a file copying process taking place, and not a *transcode,* or a *recompression.*

[Joe Carney]

Does MC 4 have > than 1080p editing and secondary color correction?