Over/under crank with the Flash/Nano

Dan Keaton · October 22nd, 2009, 12:29 PM

Dear Mark,

Your XL H1 can not output 1080p60, only 1080i60 (59.94).

Your Flash XDR can not create 1080p60 out of any other frame rate.

Your Flash XDR can not record 1080p60, even if a camera can generate 1080p60.

............

Your XL H1 can generate 1080p30 (29.97) and the Flash XDR can record it.

Your XL H1 can generate 1080p24 (23.976) and the Flash XDR can record it.

I hope this helps.

Mark Job · October 22nd, 2009, 12:29 PM

Hi Dan:
If you think about it, 1080i cameras are actually 60 fps cameras already because they capture an interlaced image. Could a program somehow take the interlaced signal and somehow double it to 60p ?

Dan Keaton · October 22nd, 2009, 12:34 PM

Dear Mark,

The Canon XL H1, as is normal, for 1080i60 (59.94) produces 29.97 frames per second and 59.94 fields per second in interlaced mode.

Mark Job · October 22nd, 2009, 02:21 PM

Hi Dan:
You wrote: "Dear Mark,

The Canon XL H1, as is normal, for 1080i60 (59.94) produces 29.97 frames per second and 59.94 fields per second in interlaced mode."

....Thanks. I know what speed my camera runs at :-) What I was wondering if there was a possibility of creating an overcranking effect in the XDR for 1080i 59.94 Hz cameras by using a line doubler process ? ;-)

Dan Keaton · October 22nd, 2009, 02:30 PM

Dear Mark,

I am sorry, I missed the subtleties of your question.

Mark Job · October 22nd, 2009, 03:09 PM

Hi Dan:
I guess I will have to use slow mo processes offered by editing applications. What about Undercrank in the XDR ? I would think we can go down if we can't go up. (??) BTW, 1 frame per second is still too fast to get pedestrians downtown in time lapse mode. I think I need to shoot in some form of undercrank mode of about 2 to possibly 3 frames per second to get the right speed of the flow. I could also slow down my 1 frame per second TL clips until things flow at the right speed. However, if you don't have enough in betweens their isn't much you can do to correct that other than to shoot undercrank.

Dan Keaton · October 22nd, 2009, 04:52 PM

Dear Mark,

Have you considering just recording at normal speed, then adjusting the speed (velocity) in post? In Sony Vegas it is call Velocity. I do not know what it is called in Avid or FCP.

Mark Job · October 22nd, 2009, 06:13 PM

Hi Dan:
I have tried the slow mo in Avid MC, but I have not yet tied this effect in FCP. I don't like the temporal fluidity of the slow mo in AMC. You have several choices of slow mo in Media Composer, but none of them seem to give smooth enough movement, and the result leans more toward a stroboscopic sort of motion. This type of slow mo can be pleasing for some material in some situations, but I prefer the smoothness of movement effect you get from high speed film shooting. The best temporal fluidity in applied slow motion to a regular speed shot was in an Avid DS Nitris system. Unfortunately I don't have the extra 150 Grand US for one of those ;-)

....So is it safe to conclude CD has no plans to add under or overcranking to the Flash XDR Dan ?

Aaron Newsome · October 22nd, 2009, 08:43 PM

If you're doing slow motion with Apple's Optical Flow technology, the results can be quite amazing, frame blending not so much. Twixtor can also produce amazing results with certain material.

Mark Job · October 22nd, 2009, 09:26 PM

Hi Aaron:
The Apple Optical Flow Technology to which you refer, is this part of FCP 7.0 or another program ?

Aaron Newsome · October 22nd, 2009, 11:06 PM

Hi Mark. Optical Flow retiming has been in Shake for quite some time. It was introduced in Final Cut Studio 2.0, but only if you render in Compressor. If you rendered from FCP to output file, I do not believe Optical Flow was used to retime clips. It's still there in Final Cut Studio 3.0 but more apps are capable of using Optical Flow for retiming. I'm guessing that Motion and FCP can retime clips directly with Optical Flow in FCS 3.0 but I'd have to look just to be sure.

If you ever have a second, check out the Optical Flow whitepaper and do your own tests. I did. From what I can remember, it's a much more complex retiming method, using full raster predictive analysis and read ahead to know which pixels in the frame are changing and which way they're going.

I'd like to do some 60fps -> 24fps overcranked in camera and then slow that down about 50% with Optical Flow retiming (or Twixtor) and see the results. Maybe on a slow weekend I'll do that.

Dan Keaton · October 23rd, 2009, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Job

Hi Dan:
....So is it safe to conclude CD has no plans to add under or overcranking to the Flash XDR Dan ?

Dear Mark,

Over and under-cranking will be added to the Flash XDR as well as the nanoFlash.

Rafael Amador · October 23rd, 2009, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Newsome

Hi Mark. Optical Flow retiming has been in Shake for quite some time. It was introduced in Final Cut Studio 2.0, but only if you render in Compressor. If you rendered from FCP to output file, I do not believe Optical Flow was used to retime clips. It's still there in Final Cut Studio 3.0 but more apps are capable of using Optical Flow for retiming. I'm guessing that Motion and FCP can retime clips directly with Optical Flow in FCS 3.0 but I'd have to look just to be sure.

If you ever have a second, check out the Optical Flow whitepaper and do your own tests. I did. From what I can remember, it's a much more complex retiming method, using full raster predictive analysis and read ahead to know which pixels in the frame are changing and which way they're going.

I'd like to do some 60fps -> 24fps overcranked in camera and then slow that down about 50% with Optical Flow retiming (or Twixtor) and see the results. Maybe on a slow weekend I'll do that.

Right.
MOTION have the Optical Flow engine too.
Rafael

Mark Job · October 23rd, 2009, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Mark,

Over and under-cranking will be added to the Flash XDR as well as the nanoFlash.

...Hi Dan: If I understood your earlier posts correctly, I would need a camera capable of 60P for any overcrank.

Mark Job · October 23rd, 2009, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Newsome

Hi Mark. Optical Flow retiming has been in Shake for quite some time. It was introduced in Final Cut Studio 2.0, but only if you render in Compressor. If you rendered from FCP to output file, I do not believe Optical Flow was used to retime clips. It's still there in Final Cut Studio 3.0 but more apps are capable of using Optical Flow for retiming. I'm guessing that Motion and FCP can retime clips directly with Optical Flow in FCS 3.0 but I'd have to look just to be sure.

If you ever have a second, check out the Optical Flow whitepaper and do your own tests. I did. From what I can remember, it's a much more complex retiming method, using full raster predictive analysis and read ahead to know which pixels in the frame are changing and which way they're going.

I'd like to do some 60fps -> 24fps overcranked in camera and then slow that down about 50% with Optical Flow retiming (or Twixtor) and see the results. Maybe on a slow weekend I'll do that.

...Hi Aaron: OK. Thanks for the heads up on this. I will check it out. I have FCS 7.0 However.

October 22nd, 2009, 12:29 PM	#31
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, Your XL H1 can not output 1080p60, only 1080i60 (59.94). Your Flash XDR can not create 1080p60 out of any other frame rate. Your Flash XDR can not record 1080p60, even if a camera can generate 1080p60. ............ Your XL H1 can generate 1080p30 (29.97) and the Flash XDR can record it. Your XL H1 can generate 1080p24 (23.976) and the Flash XDR can record it. I hope this helps. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

October 22nd, 2009, 12:29 PM	#32
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Interlaced 60i to 60p ?? Hi Dan: If you think about it, 1080i cameras are actually 60 fps cameras already because they capture an interlaced image. Could a program somehow take the interlaced signal and somehow double it to 60p ?

October 22nd, 2009, 12:34 PM	#33
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, The Canon XL H1, as is normal, for 1080i60 (59.94) produces 29.97 frames per second and 59.94 fields per second in interlaced mode. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

October 22nd, 2009, 02:30 PM	#35
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, I am sorry, I missed the subtleties of your question. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

October 22nd, 2009, 04:52 PM	#37
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, Have you considering just recording at normal speed, then adjusting the speed (velocity) in post? In Sony Vegas it is call Velocity. I do not know what it is called in Avid or FCP. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

October 22nd, 2009, 02:21 PM	#34
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Dan: You wrote: "Dear Mark, The Canon XL H1, as is normal, for 1080i60 (59.94) produces 29.97 frames per second and 59.94 fields per second in interlaced mode." ....Thanks. I know what speed my camera runs at :-) What I was wondering if there was a possibility of creating an overcranking effect in the XDR for 1080i 59.94 Hz cameras by using a line doubler process ? ;-)

October 22nd, 2009, 03:09 PM	#36
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Hi Dan: I guess I will have to use slow mo processes offered by editing applications. What about Undercrank in the XDR ? I would think we can go down if we can't go up. (??) BTW, 1 frame per second is still too fast to get pedestrians downtown in time lapse mode. I think I need to shoot in some form of undercrank mode of about 2 to possibly 3 frames per second to get the right speed of the flow. I could also slow down my 1 frame per second TL clips until things flow at the right speed. However, if you don't have enough in betweens their isn't much you can do to correct that other than to shoot undercrank.

October 22nd, 2009, 06:13 PM	#38
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Normal Speed to Slow Mo in Post (Temporal Fluidity Issues) Hi Dan: I have tried the slow mo in Avid MC, but I have not yet tied this effect in FCP. I don't like the temporal fluidity of the slow mo in AMC. You have several choices of slow mo in Media Composer, but none of them seem to give smooth enough movement, and the result leans more toward a stroboscopic sort of motion. This type of slow mo can be pleasing for some material in some situations, but I prefer the smoothness of movement effect you get from high speed film shooting. The best temporal fluidity in applied slow motion to a regular speed shot was in an Avid DS Nitris system. Unfortunately I don't have the extra 150 Grand US for one of those ;-) ....So is it safe to conclude CD has no plans to add under or overcranking to the Flash XDR Dan ?

October 22nd, 2009, 08:43 PM	#39
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	If you're doing slow motion with Apple's Optical Flow technology, the results can be quite amazing, frame blending not so much. Twixtor can also produce amazing results with certain material.

October 22nd, 2009, 09:26 PM	#40
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Apple's Optical Flow Technology Hi Aaron: The Apple Optical Flow Technology to which you refer, is this part of FCP 7.0 or another program ?

October 22nd, 2009, 11:06 PM	#41
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	Hi Mark. Optical Flow retiming has been in Shake for quite some time. It was introduced in Final Cut Studio 2.0, but only if you render in Compressor. If you rendered from FCP to output file, I do not believe Optical Flow was used to retime clips. It's still there in Final Cut Studio 3.0 but more apps are capable of using Optical Flow for retiming. I'm guessing that Motion and FCP can retime clips directly with Optical Flow in FCS 3.0 but I'd have to look just to be sure. If you ever have a second, check out the Optical Flow whitepaper and do your own tests. I did. From what I can remember, it's a much more complex retiming method, using full raster predictive analysis and read ahead to know which pixels in the frame are changing and which way they're going. I'd like to do some 60fps -> 24fps overcranked in camera and then slow that down about 50% with Optical Flow retiming (or Twixtor) and see the results. Maybe on a slow weekend I'll do that.