over/under crank at DVinfo.net

Ofer Levy · July 27th, 2009, 03:40 AM

Any news as to the when will the firmware update which includes under/over crank be released?
I know you are busy with the NanoFlash but thought I'll ask as I think this was on the agenda a while ago.

Thanks,
Regards,
Ofer

Dan Keaton · July 27th, 2009, 12:45 PM

Dear Ofer,

I could not have said it better.

Yes, we are very busy with the nanoFlash. As such, I do not want to commit to a schedule that we may not meet.

The nanoFlash is going very well, but we want to be able to jump on any issues that may arise. We do not have any issues at this time, but we want to be prepared.

The issue that we just resolved was very subtle. It involved communications between the microprocessor and the FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) and it would only fail once every 1.25 million transfers.

So we found it, and now the nanoFlash is more reliable due to our work.

However, this did delay us in implementing new features, such as over and under cranking.

Our next feature is expected to be "Hot Swapping" which will apply to both the Flash XDR and the nanoFlash.

Steve Phillipps · July 27th, 2009, 01:16 PM

Ofer, as a wildlife guy you'll know that you always want as much slomo speed as you can get (I think most of us are really looking forward to when we can get 120fps as we had on our Arriflexes!), so at the moment you can just set the camera to 720 50P or 60P, into an I frame codec then just conform it in Cinema Tools or whatever, a process that takes just seconds. I think it will be nice to have overcranking in camera so to speak, but if it was me I wouldn't be that fussed at the moment as there is a simple workaround.
Did you try this method yet?
Steve

Ofer Levy · July 27th, 2009, 04:53 PM

Hi Steve,
Thank you for your valuable input. No I haven't tried it yet as I only work in Long GOP and never tried I-Farme only. I shoot in slo mo all the time and would love to have this feature in the Flash XDR as promised.
Another factor is that in order to shoot I Frame only at 220 Mb/s I need to replace my Transcend 32GB to the Sandisk Extreme type 4 which is not a cheap exercise.

BTW - has anyone tried the technique Steve suggests with the Flash XDR ?

Thanks,
Ofer

Dan Keaton · July 27th, 2009, 05:25 PM

Dear Ofer,

At this time, we do not know if we can implement over and under-cranking in Long-GOP.

Mike thinks not, but it is too early to tell. (I would not bet against Mike.)

Ofer Levy · July 27th, 2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Ofer,

At this time, we do not know if we can implement over and under-cranking in Long-GOP.

Mike thinks not, but it is too early to tell. (I would not bet against Mike.)

Hi Dan, I see. Did you do any experiemnets in getting over crank the way Steve decribes. It does makes sense but I would like to hear if it actually works and whether there is anything I have to consider when going this path.

Thanks,
Ofer

Dan Keaton · July 27th, 2009, 06:31 PM

Dear Ofer,

Steve is a true expert. You can rely on what he says.

I agree with Steve, but no, I have not done any experiments.

Ofer Levy · July 27th, 2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Ofer,

Steve is a true expert. You can rely on what he says.

I agree with Steve, but no, I have not done any experiments.

Hi Dan, I know Steve is an expert (who helped me a lot when I started my journey) and I don't doubt his professionalism just want to hear some input as to the practical side of things (as I know Steve doesn't own the Flash XDR and I assume he didn't actually try it) - preferred bit rate, how will Long GOP and I-Frame only footage cut together and any other factor I have to consider as I am using slow motion very often in my work and would like to get it right.
Another question which I hope isn't too silly - if this procedure gives an identical Slow Motion to what can be achieved in the camera/Flash - why is there a need to include over-crank as a separate feature in the Flash/Nano.

Thanks,
Ofer

Dan Keaton · July 27th, 2009, 11:37 PM

Dear Ofer,

Sony Vegas does not support our I-Frame Only modes at this time.

Other NLE's do.

Mixing Long-GOP and I-Frame only in other editors should not be a problem.

Personally, I have not tried it as I use Sony Vegas for editing.

For Long-GOP, my preferred bit-rate is 100 Mbps. This bit-rate goes you added assurance that there will not be any artifacts even if there is an exteme amount of detail or motion in the image.

Faster bit-rates, such as our 140 and 160, are available for your use if desired.

Slo-Motion is only one aspect of over and under cranking. We have choosen to provide frame rates of 1-60 (720p) or 1-30 (1080p). This gives users a wide range of choices, including doing it in post or doing it in a Flash XDR/nanoFlash.

Ofer Levy · July 28th, 2009, 12:23 AM

Thanks for the additional information Dan!
If anyone can comment on the few other points I have mentioned:
Will the technique of shooting 720 60p I-Frame only then converting in post to 25 fps - give me identical results to shooting in the slow motion mode in the camera/Flash XDR?
My Transcend cards can only be used up to 140Mb/s - is this high enough quality in I-Frame only compared with Long GOP at 100 Mb/s ?

Thanks,
Ofer

Dan Keaton · July 28th, 2009, 07:06 AM

Dear Ofer,

I recommend that you run some simple tests:

1. Record at I-Frame Only at 140 Mbps.

2. Record in Long-GOP at 100 Mbps.

Let us know if you can see any differences.

I feel that Long-GOP at 100 Mbps will be better, but it is up to you if the 140 Mbps I-Frame Only is good enough.

This is really a personal matter.

Ofer Levy · July 28th, 2009, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Ofer,

I recommend that you run some simple tests:

1. Record at I-Frame Only at 140 Mbps.

2. Record in Long-GOP at 100 Mbps.

Let us know if you can see any differences.

I feel that Long-GOP at 100 Mbps will be better, but it is up to you if the 140 Mbps I-Frame Only is good enough.

This is really a personal matter.

Thanks Dan,
I guess there is no point in recording Long GOP as it can not be converted to Slo-Mo by the mentioned technique as far as I understand - you can only do that with I-Frame only.
Cheers,
Ofer

Dan Keaton · July 28th, 2009, 09:28 AM

Dear Ofer,

Yes, that may be true.

I was recommending that you compare the two modes, with the equipment that you already have.

This will give you knowledge about the quality differences between the two modes.

Then, if the I-Frame Only mode at 140 Mbps meets your quality needs, then you know that you do not need to purchase faster CompactFlash cards.

Steve Phillipps · July 31st, 2009, 03:25 PM

The benefit (huge) to having overcranking in-camera / in-box is that it's then ready for use with no need for conforming, and that it can be played back AS slomo straight from the box. If you record 720/60P and play it back it'll be normal speed UNTIL you conform it. Also, despite what I said about always wanting as many fps as you can get, it is nice to be able to dial in 32fps or 40 or whatever at times.

Ofer, you CAN do it with GOP codecs, it's just that you have to transcode it to an I Frame (like ProRes) first. This takes quite a while to do (as it needs to work on each frame) and does degrade the quality to some extent.
Best wishes to all.
Steve

Ofer Levy · August 1st, 2009, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

The benefit (huge) to having overcranking in-camera / in-box is that it's then ready for use with no need for conforming, and that it can be played back AS slomo straight from the box. If you record 720/60P and play it back it'll be normal speed UNTIL you conform it. Also, despite what I said about always wanting as many fps as you can get, it is nice to be able to dial in 32fps or 40 or whatever at times.

Ofer, you CAN do it with GOP codecs, it's just that you have to transcode it to an I Frame (like ProRes) first. This takes quite a while to do (as it needs to work on each frame) and does degrade the quality to some extent.
Best wishes to all.
Steve

Thanks for this valuable information Steve.
I have managed to get the slow motion by using the technique you described and it looks AWESOME !!! Way better than what the EX3 is capable of doing.
However, I believe the Transcend 32GB I am using is not fast enough for the 140Mb/s so I could only get short clips of 5-10 seconds.
Will get a faster card - probably the Sandsik Extreme III 32 GB and will give it a go.

Thanks for all your fantastic input Steve, much appreciated!
Regards,
Ofer Levy Photography

July 27th, 2009, 03:40 AM	#1
Ofer Levy Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney-Australia Posts: 443	over/under crank Any news as to the when will the firmware update which includes under/over crank be released? I know you are busy with the NanoFlash but thought I'll ask as I think this was on the agenda a while ago. Thanks, Regards, Ofer

July 27th, 2009, 12:45 PM	#2
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Ofer, I could not have said it better. Yes, we are very busy with the nanoFlash. As such, I do not want to commit to a schedule that we may not meet. The nanoFlash is going very well, but we want to be able to jump on any issues that may arise. We do not have any issues at this time, but we want to be prepared. The issue that we just resolved was very subtle. It involved communications between the microprocessor and the FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) and it would only fail once every 1.25 million transfers. So we found it, and now the nanoFlash is more reliable due to our work. However, this did delay us in implementing new features, such as over and under cranking. Our next feature is expected to be "Hot Swapping" which will apply to both the Flash XDR and the nanoFlash. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 27th, 2009, 05:25 PM	#5
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Ofer, At this time, we do not know if we can implement over and under-cranking in Long-GOP. Mike thinks not, but it is too early to tell. (I would not bet against Mike.) __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 27th, 2009, 06:31 PM	#7
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Ofer, Steve is a true expert. You can rely on what he says. I agree with Steve, but no, I have not done any experiments. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 27th, 2009, 11:37 PM	#9
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Ofer, Sony Vegas does not support our I-Frame Only modes at this time. Other NLE's do. Mixing Long-GOP and I-Frame only in other editors should not be a problem. Personally, I have not tried it as I use Sony Vegas for editing. For Long-GOP, my preferred bit-rate is 100 Mbps. This bit-rate goes you added assurance that there will not be any artifacts even if there is an exteme amount of detail or motion in the image. Faster bit-rates, such as our 140 and 160, are available for your use if desired. Slo-Motion is only one aspect of over and under cranking. We have choosen to provide frame rates of 1-60 (720p) or 1-30 (1080p). This gives users a wide range of choices, including doing it in post or doing it in a Flash XDR/nanoFlash. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 27th, 2009, 01:16 PM	#3
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Ofer, as a wildlife guy you'll know that you always want as much slomo speed as you can get (I think most of us are really looking forward to when we can get 120fps as we had on our Arriflexes!), so at the moment you can just set the camera to 720 50P or 60P, into an I frame codec then just conform it in Cinema Tools or whatever, a process that takes just seconds. I think it will be nice to have overcranking in camera so to speak, but if it was me I wouldn't be that fussed at the moment as there is a simple workaround. Did you try this method yet? Steve

July 27th, 2009, 04:53 PM	#4
Ofer Levy Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney-Australia Posts: 443	Hi Steve, Thank you for your valuable input. No I haven't tried it yet as I only work in Long GOP and never tried I-Farme only. I shoot in slo mo all the time and would love to have this feature in the Flash XDR as promised. Another factor is that in order to shoot I Frame only at 220 Mb/s I need to replace my Transcend 32GB to the Sandisk Extreme type 4 which is not a cheap exercise. BTW - has anyone tried the technique Steve suggests with the Flash XDR ? Thanks, Ofer

July 28th, 2009, 12:23 AM	#10
Ofer Levy Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney-Australia Posts: 443	Thanks for the additional information Dan! If anyone can comment on the few other points I have mentioned: Will the technique of shooting 720 60p I-Frame only then converting in post to 25 fps - give me identical results to shooting in the slow motion mode in the camera/Flash XDR? My Transcend cards can only be used up to 140Mb/s - is this high enough quality in I-Frame only compared with Long GOP at 100 Mb/s ? Thanks, Ofer

July 28th, 2009, 07:06 AM	#11
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Ofer, I recommend that you run some simple tests: 1. Record at I-Frame Only at 140 Mbps. 2. Record in Long-GOP at 100 Mbps. Let us know if you can see any differences. I feel that Long-GOP at 100 Mbps will be better, but it is up to you if the 140 Mbps I-Frame Only is good enough. This is really a personal matter. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 28th, 2009, 09:28 AM	#13
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Ofer, Yes, that may be true. I was recommending that you compare the two modes, with the equipment that you already have. This will give you knowledge about the quality differences between the two modes. Then, if the I-Frame Only mode at 140 Mbps meets your quality needs, then you know that you do not need to purchase faster CompactFlash cards. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 31st, 2009, 03:25 PM	#14
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	The benefit (huge) to having overcranking in-camera / in-box is that it's then ready for use with no need for conforming, and that it can be played back AS slomo straight from the box. If you record 720/60P and play it back it'll be normal speed UNTIL you conform it. Also, despite what I said about always wanting as many fps as you can get, it is nice to be able to dial in 32fps or 40 or whatever at times. Ofer, you CAN do it with GOP codecs, it's just that you have to transcode it to an I Frame (like ProRes) first. This takes quite a while to do (as it needs to work on each frame) and does degrade the quality to some extent. Best wishes to all. Steve