Nano Flash and Canon HF S100 at DVinfo.net

Michael Mann · May 8th, 2009, 09:25 AM

Nano Flash and Canon HF S100, connected by HDMI:
Will Nano Flash record before or after compression of the HF S100?

Thanks in advance, Michael

Robin Davies-Rollinson · May 8th, 2009, 12:12 PM

Folks who record from the camera via HDMI claim that they are bypassing the compression stage...

Dan Keaton · May 8th, 2009, 03:16 PM

Dear Michael,

The HDMI output of the camera is before the compression stage.

Michael Mann · May 9th, 2009, 02:24 AM

Dear Dan and Robin,

good to hear, thank you.
If you should find a link to someone who made some tests please post it here.

Michael Mann

Dan Keaton · May 9th, 2009, 04:02 AM

Dear Michael,

Yes, we need to create some HDMI footage and post it on our website.

C.S. Michael · May 9th, 2009, 06:37 AM

Does this also apply to the Canon HV20/30/40 series?

Dan Keaton · May 9th, 2009, 06:47 AM

Dear C.S.,

Yes, we use a Canon HV30 in our lab. It works great with our nanoFlash (and Flash XDR) with our nanoConnect (HDMI to HD-SDI converter).

John Quick · May 18th, 2009, 01:50 PM

Hey, Dan:

Have you had the chance to see Nanoflash recordings from the Z7's HDMI output?

Mike Schell · May 18th, 2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Quick

Hey, Dan:

Have you had the chance to see Nanoflash recordings from the Z7's HDMI output?

Hi John-
No tests on the Z7 yet, but the images from the Canon HV30 look fantastic. If you like the images on your LCD/Plasam screen right out of the Z7 (via HDMI), then you won't be disappointed with the results from the nanoFlash. The images are visually indistinguishable.

Best-

Alan Emery · May 19th, 2009, 07:01 PM

Hi Mike,

Is it possible to measure the bitrate coming into the XDR or Nanoflash from the HV30 HDMI output? If the output is 1.485Gbps,that would let us know for sure if it is uncompressed. If it is something different, that would also be informative.

Thanks,
Alan

Mike Schell · May 19th, 2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Emery

Hi Mike,

Is it possible to measure the bitrate coming into the XDR or Nanoflash from the HV30 HDMI output? If the output is 1.485Gbps,that would let us know for sure if it is uncompressed. If it is something different, that would also be informative.

Thanks,
Alan

Hi Alan-
HDMI video is uncompressed 1920x1080 4:2:2 8/10 bit. It's the same video as HD-SDI, just transmitted over 3 differential pairs of wire rather than a single coax.

Best-

Alan Emery · May 20th, 2009, 06:34 AM

Hi Mike,

As I understand the advertising from Canon, the HDMI output is intended to play the recorded HDV miniDV tapes directly from the camera to a HDTV. In this case the HDMI cable is carrying much less than the full information you describe.

However, you have found that the HDMI function is using uncompressed information from the sensor when it is functioning as an "external viewfinder connection". Very nice.

Just musing, but does this mean that other cameras that have the ability to accept an external viewfiner essentially also have access to an uncompressed source? If so, that might mean that your nanoflash or XDR could be used even if the cameras do not have a formal HDSDI connector.

Thanks,
Alan

Henry Olonga · May 20th, 2009, 05:46 PM

Click on my signature for my tests of various captures to Cineform.

Bad news though my friend.I have been unable to get the HDMI on this camera (HFS10) to handshake with anything but my Sony bravia LCD.It will not talk to my Blackmagic design card or an HDMI switch or indeed even an HDMI splitter and they are all HDMI version 1.3 compatible.The camera has a flickering menu setting for HDMI when anything else is plugged in.It doesn't register the output or send a signal.Very frustrating amd my work around has been to shoot with the Composite HD port.
If you figure this one out please let me know.Perhaps Mike and company may chip in if they have any idea what it may be that is causing this strange behaviour.It is one of the reasons I am anxious to find out if it works with Nanoflash.If it does I may be interested in buying but if not I may be in trouble as Nanoflash has no composite input as far as I know

Robert C. Fisher · May 21st, 2009, 10:26 AM

Ahhhh! The HDMI standard includes DRM to prevent recording of anything through the HDMI port. This has been sneaking up for quite a few years. The best thing would be for pro manufacturers to ignore the DRM in their HDMI products but there are issues with that no doubt.

I hate DRM as it screws up most products and really does not prevent anything other than legal uses.

The question for Mike Schell is does the NanoFlash recognize the DRM and prevent recording? Can this be excluded from the product if it is there? I was planing on using the Nano in a 3D rig with Canon cameras if this can't be remedied then I am screwed.

Dan Keaton · May 21st, 2009, 11:15 AM

Dear Robert,

Cameras with HDMI outputs do not include DRM (HDCP) that would prevent us from recording the output of the camera.

Our devices can not record copy protected material, such as a DVD, but can record the content that you produce.

To be specific, you can record the output of the Canon cameras with the Flash XDR or nanoFlash.

May 8th, 2009, 09:25 AM	#1
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	Nano Flash and Canon HF S100 Nano Flash and Canon HF S100, connected by HDMI: Will Nano Flash record before or after compression of the HF S100? Thanks in advance, Michael __________________ Michael

May 8th, 2009, 03:16 PM	#3
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Michael, The HDMI output of the camera is before the compression stage. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

May 9th, 2009, 02:24 AM	#4
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	Dear Dan and Robin, good to hear, thank you. If you should find a link to someone who made some tests please post it here. Michael Mann __________________ Michael

May 9th, 2009, 04:02 AM	#5
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Michael, Yes, we need to create some HDMI footage and post it on our website. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

May 9th, 2009, 06:37 AM	#6
C.S. Michael Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 197	Does this also apply to the Canon HV20/30/40 series? __________________ Bored? Check out my blog (shot with Sony EX1, Panasonic TM700, Nikon D7100, Sony NEX-5N, GoPro2): LongLongHoneymoon.com

May 8th, 2009, 12:12 PM	#2
Robin Davies-Rollinson Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gwaelod-y-garth, Cardiff, CYMRU/WALES Posts: 1,215	Folks who record from the camera via HDMI claim that they are bypassing the compression stage...

May 9th, 2009, 06:47 AM	#7
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear C.S., Yes, we use a Canon HV30 in our lab. It works great with our nanoFlash (and Flash XDR) with our nanoConnect (HDMI to HD-SDI converter). __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

May 18th, 2009, 01:50 PM	#8
John Quick New Boot Join Date: May 2009 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 23	Sony Z7U Hey, Dan: Have you had the chance to see Nanoflash recordings from the Z7's HDMI output?

May 19th, 2009, 07:01 PM	#10
Alan Emery Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Janetville Ontario Canada Posts: 210	Hi Mike, Is it possible to measure the bitrate coming into the XDR or Nanoflash from the HV30 HDMI output? If the output is 1.485Gbps,that would let us know for sure if it is uncompressed. If it is something different, that would also be informative. Thanks, Alan

May 20th, 2009, 06:34 AM	#12
Alan Emery Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Janetville Ontario Canada Posts: 210	Hi Mike, As I understand the advertising from Canon, the HDMI output is intended to play the recorded HDV miniDV tapes directly from the camera to a HDTV. In this case the HDMI cable is carrying much less than the full information you describe. However, you have found that the HDMI function is using uncompressed information from the sensor when it is functioning as an "external viewfinder connection". Very nice. Just musing, but does this mean that other cameras that have the ability to accept an external viewfiner essentially also have access to an uncompressed source? If so, that might mean that your nanoflash or XDR could be used even if the cameras do not have a formal HDSDI connector. Thanks, Alan

May 20th, 2009, 05:46 PM	#13
Henry Olonga Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: London Posts: 201	I have done tests Michael but to Composite HD Click on my signature for my tests of various captures to Cineform. Bad news though my friend.I have been unable to get the HDMI on this camera (HFS10) to handshake with anything but my Sony bravia LCD.It will not talk to my Blackmagic design card or an HDMI switch or indeed even an HDMI splitter and they are all HDMI version 1.3 compatible.The camera has a flickering menu setting for HDMI when anything else is plugged in.It doesn't register the output or send a signal.Very frustrating amd my work around has been to shoot with the Composite HD port. If you figure this one out please let me know.Perhaps Mike and company may chip in if they have any idea what it may be that is causing this strange behaviour.It is one of the reasons I am anxious to find out if it works with Nanoflash.If it does I may be interested in buying but if not I may be in trouble as Nanoflash has no composite input as far as I know __________________ My vimeo page: http://vimeo.com/henryolonga/videos My website: www.henryolonga.net

May 21st, 2009, 10:26 AM	#14
Robert C. Fisher Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 55	Ahhhh! The HDMI standard includes DRM to prevent recording of anything through the HDMI port. This has been sneaking up for quite a few years. The best thing would be for pro manufacturers to ignore the DRM in their HDMI products but there are issues with that no doubt. I hate DRM as it screws up most products and really does not prevent anything other than legal uses. The question for Mike Schell is does the NanoFlash recognize the DRM and prevent recording? Can this be excluded from the product if it is there? I was planing on using the Nano in a 3D rig with Canon cameras if this can't be remedied then I am screwed. __________________ Robert C. Fisher VR Photography/Cinematography

May 21st, 2009, 11:15 AM	#15
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Robert, Cameras with HDMI outputs do not include DRM (HDCP) that would prevent us from recording the output of the camera. Our devices can not record copy protected material, such as a DVD, but can record the content that you produce. To be specific, you can record the output of the Canon cameras with the Flash XDR or nanoFlash. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia