Thomson Viper with Flash XDR at DVinfo.net

Dan Keaton · January 15th, 2009, 07:17 PM

Emmy award winner Richard Welnowski, started his evaluation of the Flash XDR yesterday. Over 380 shooting days with the Thomson Viper has made him a true expert with what many consider one of the finest digital motion picture cameras in the world.

Richard normally records full uncompressed using his Viper setup but was looking for a way to record very high quality images while achieving a much more manageable file size.

Richard is a very accomplished and well-respected cameraman.

After a brief setup of the Viper to work with the Flash XDR and a few minutes of learning how to use the Flash XDR, he started recording.

This was a spontaneous test, with no special lighting. The image is of a bicycle Richard designed. It was in his loft, lit by a small window. The Bicycle was 20' from his viper, and Richard was using a Canon Zoon lens, fully open, with +3db of gain in the Viper, which was set for 4:2:2 mode.

The Flash XDR was set to record at 100 Mbps, Long-GOP, mode. We call this our "Master Quality" mode, and we recommend it over all other modes when quality is priority one.

Richard recorded for a short time, then transferred the image into Final Cut Pro's latest version. The image below is a single frame. Richard recorded at 1080psf29.97.

The following is an untouched image; no color correction or adjustment of any kind was made (as I understand it, I was not there.) This is a 5 MB download.

http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...Viper-422.tiff

Recording full uncompressed is demanding in terms of cost of storage and processing power. The Flash XDR's 100 Mbps files are much easier to transfer and store while still providing excellent quality images.

Richard was evaluating the Flash XDR to see how our images compare.

He was very excited with the results and has given me permission to quote him.

"It's beautiful!"
"This is amazing, just amazing."
"I am really pleased".
"There are no artifacts!"

Richard checked each of the channels and found them clean. He was also very pleased how easy it was to upload the footage into Final Cut Pro.

We share Richard's excitement and thank him for his evaluation.

Richard will be filming the Houston Marathon tomorrow.
His website is: Compositing Expert

We welcome your comments.

Stewart Chong · January 17th, 2009, 02:51 AM

A couple of years ago, Fincher concocted a strategic plan to R&D a tapeless workflow built around Thomson Viper FilmStream cameras recording to D.Mag Digital Film Magazines (from S.two of Reno, Nev.) on a series of five commercials. He has now applied lessons from those projects to a full-length feature film for the first time with Zodiac back in 2006.

Apart from S.2 provides an uncompressed Dual link 4:4:4 1080p up to 4K capturing solution, and I am strongly believed that Flash XDR can make an " Super Value " to film Directors as thier HD master viewing in HD Broadcast grade master format.

Check out the Zodiac's tapleless workflow at http://digitalcontentproducer.com/im...onworkflow.pdf

for our reference, and we will have some ideas how we can use Flash XDRs to apply in the High-end Cameras based field recording workflow.

We can use XDRs ( 1920 x 1080 8 bit 4:2:2 at 50 -160 Mb/s ) as a better option than " HDCAM " quality ( 1440 x 1080 then applies to just 8 bit 3:1:1 ) for the well known Big boys cameras like Genesis / D20/21 / F35 & F23 / Viper / Varicam to gain HD broadcast market revenues.

And this is my one Cent.....

Best regards,
Stewart Chong
An Alchemist with the FlashXDR
Tapeless Workflow from HD to 4K ( Creative to Display )
Wow Holdings
Hong Kong

Herman Van Deventer · January 17th, 2009, 04:56 AM

2009 / New Year's intention completely demolished on day 17 !

Used the F - word 12 x times watching the Thompson XDR Tiff.

Sorry !

Dan Keaton · January 17th, 2009, 05:04 AM

Dear Herman,

May I assume that you were impressed with the image?

Herman Van Deventer · January 17th, 2009, 05:43 AM

Dan,

Taking "new efforts" from Jpeg 2000 and AVC Intra 50/100 in Consideration, I think the XDR has proved the compression - mpeg "Sweet Spot" right.

I have been playing around with HDSI source material - compressed with Jpeg 2000 and AVC INTRA 100, taking a portable 'workflow" in consideration.

As is / The Flash XDR seems like the obvious choice.

Obviously your source input - in this case , the Thompson attributes a lot to the final result.

I think from a marketing perspective - Sample tiffs coming from a XLH1 as "mid range" source will emphasize your product more.There is thousands of "mid range" HDSDI outputs longing for the portable sweet spot.

Congratulations with the product !

Dan Keaton · January 17th, 2009, 06:04 AM

Dear Herman,

We agree on all points. We do feel that we have found the "Sweet Spot" with 100 Mbps Long-GOP.

The Flash XDR and the upcoming nanoFlash dramatically improve the images from the under $10,000 cameras, such as the XL H1/XL H1s, EX1/EX3, and others with HD-SDI outputs.

Recording a 4:2:2 signal as opposed to the 4:2:0 signal when recorded in camera makes a big improvement in image quality.

This was our first opportunity to combine the Flash XDR with the Viper.

It was an instant success, Richard is very happy with the quality, and excited about the significant improvements in his workflow. 100 Mbps files are must easier to work with than uncompressed.

We will hear more from Richard after the Houston Marathon. This will be an interesting shoot, a real torture test of any codec with 25,000 runners; lots of detail and movement.

Richard will be examining the footage in detail after the event. Also, he will be performing other tests.

Using an ultra high-end camera, such as the Viper, with the Flash XDR could have shown up flaws in our Flash XDR, but we were able to meet Richard's high standards for quality.

Stewart Chong · January 17th, 2009, 08:58 AM

Good to hear that XDR is a right choice for 8 or later 10 bit 4:2:2 Full HD recording device for those decent cameras.

I have been working on CF card based HD portable recorders for some Film Directors / DOPs here in HKG.

In coming days in HK, I will report comments from them on Genesis + XDR / F35 + XDR / RED one + XDR / Kinor + XDR / Varicam + XDR as high-end camera system as well.

And D21 + XDR at ARRI ASIA in HK as well.

Hope to see an uncompressed HD support soon on Flash XDR, and Dual Link + 2K option in future on " Turbo Flash XDR " in later 2009.

Do not forget Stereoscopic 3D will be a big market for CD for their 2 x HDSDI version of FlashXDR.

Sorry has SWR-1 not only can do 4:4:4 in SR mode but two HDSDI input of 2 cameras with TC Sync together for Stereoscopic field recording as well.

Sorry are so overpriced to me though !!!

Again, my 1 cent.

Cheers,

Stewart
Hong Kong - CHINA

Dan Keaton · January 17th, 2009, 09:12 AM

Dear Stewart,

Just to be clear, Dual-Link HD-SDI is not in our present product plans for 2009.

Stewart Chong · January 17th, 2009, 10:23 AM

Sorry Dan,

I am running too fast.
Never too late in over prediction in the fast developing technologies, and I have a great belief that CF based development will move as " fast as llightning " from 2009 ahead....

Yes, I know very clear from your today post for the current time table of present product plans at CD for 2009.

No offense to you to say that :
I had a Kona 3 card in almost 3 years ago to do dual link HD and 2K uncompressed capturing on my G5 anyway.

Anyway, it's a market driven economy to push us to the limit.

Respectfully,

Stewart
HKG - CHINA

Dan Keaton · January 17th, 2009, 10:29 AM

Dear Stewart,

No problem at all.

I just did not want anyone to think that we were promising Dual-Link support.

Stewart Chong · January 17th, 2009, 10:35 AM

Yes and Clear Dan.

Cheers,

Stew.

Mark Job · January 17th, 2009, 01:28 PM

Hi Dan:
Respectfully, I don't consider this to be much of a test. This is more of a product "endorsement." You take what is considered to be the highest quality digital film production camera in the world operated by a recognized world expert and then plug that into a Flash XDR ? Of course the end result will be great. Why wouldn't the footage be great ? What I think is more of a good test is end result shown on the Convergent Website and other tests taken from the Canon XL H1 HD SDI signal recorded to the XDR.

Dan Keaton · January 17th, 2009, 01:35 PM

Dear Mark,

The Flash XDR was requested by Mr. Richard Welnowski, he wanted to test the Flash XDR.

When one normally records 4:4:4, full uncompressed, one would need to test (or confirm) that 4:2:2, at the desired frame rates, at 100 Mbps, would actually meet his need for quality.

Mark Job · January 17th, 2009, 02:02 PM

....What will become utterly fascinating will be any possible future tests between the Flash XDR running in full uncompressed mode 4:2:2 recording the 4:2:2 signal out of the Viper. Of course, I understand Mr. Welnowski's requirements for a manageable file size for editorial post. I bet the 50 Mbps setting on the XDR would look pretty darn good out of the Viper camera as well.

Dan Keaton · January 22nd, 2009, 06:54 PM

We now have more images courtesy of Mr. Richard Welnowski.

The first is from a still camera, not the viper. It shows the Thomson Viper and the Flash XDR in use in Kansas City, Missouri.

Richard was out testing the Flash XDR with his camera.

http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...er-KC_2341.jpg

This image is a frame capture from the Thomson Viper, as recorded to the Flash XDR at 100 Mbps, 4:2:2 1080p30.

http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...Cframe-30p.tif

This is also 100 Mbps, 4:2:2, but 1080p24. Notice the motion bluring due to the speed of the vehicles and the shutter speed used.

http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...Cframe-24p.tif

Richard is currently writing an article documenting his experiences with the Flash XDR.

January 15th, 2009, 07:17 PM	#1
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Thomson Viper with Flash XDR Emmy award winner Richard Welnowski, started his evaluation of the Flash XDR yesterday. Over 380 shooting days with the Thomson Viper has made him a true expert with what many consider one of the finest digital motion picture cameras in the world. Richard normally records full uncompressed using his Viper setup but was looking for a way to record very high quality images while achieving a much more manageable file size. Richard is a very accomplished and well-respected cameraman. After a brief setup of the Viper to work with the Flash XDR and a few minutes of learning how to use the Flash XDR, he started recording. This was a spontaneous test, with no special lighting. The image is of a bicycle Richard designed. It was in his loft, lit by a small window. The Bicycle was 20' from his viper, and Richard was using a Canon Zoon lens, fully open, with +3db of gain in the Viper, which was set for 4:2:2 mode. The Flash XDR was set to record at 100 Mbps, Long-GOP, mode. We call this our "Master Quality" mode, and we recommend it over all other modes when quality is priority one. Richard recorded for a short time, then transferred the image into Final Cut Pro's latest version. The image below is a single frame. Richard recorded at 1080psf29.97. The following is an untouched image; no color correction or adjustment of any kind was made (as I understand it, I was not there.) This is a 5 MB download. http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...Viper-422.tiff Recording full uncompressed is demanding in terms of cost of storage and processing power. The Flash XDR's 100 Mbps files are much easier to transfer and store while still providing excellent quality images. Richard was evaluating the Flash XDR to see how our images compare. He was very excited with the results and has given me permission to quote him. "It's beautiful!" "This is amazing, just amazing." "I am really pleased". "There are no artifacts!" Richard checked each of the channels and found them clean. He was also very pleased how easy it was to upload the footage into Final Cut Pro. We share Richard's excitement and thank him for his evaluation. Richard will be filming the Houston Marathon tomorrow. His website is: Compositing Expert We welcome your comments. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia Last edited by Dan Keaton; January 16th, 2009 at 03:02 AM.

January 17th, 2009, 02:51 AM	#2
Stewart Chong Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hong Kong - CHINA Posts: 28	Viper + Flash XDR for David soon ..... A couple of years ago, Fincher concocted a strategic plan to R&D a tapeless workflow built around Thomson Viper FilmStream cameras recording to D.Mag Digital Film Magazines (from S.two of Reno, Nev.) on a series of five commercials. He has now applied lessons from those projects to a full-length feature film for the first time with Zodiac back in 2006. Apart from S.2 provides an uncompressed Dual link 4:4:4 1080p up to 4K capturing solution, and I am strongly believed that Flash XDR can make an " Super Value " to film Directors as thier HD master viewing in HD Broadcast grade master format. Check out the Zodiac's tapleless workflow at http://digitalcontentproducer.com/im...onworkflow.pdf for our reference, and we will have some ideas how we can use Flash XDRs to apply in the High-end Cameras based field recording workflow. We can use XDRs ( 1920 x 1080 8 bit 4:2:2 at 50 -160 Mb/s ) as a better option than " HDCAM " quality ( 1440 x 1080 then applies to just 8 bit 3:1:1 ) for the well known Big boys cameras like Genesis / D20/21 / F35 & F23 / Viper / Varicam to gain HD broadcast market revenues. And this is my one Cent..... Best regards, Stewart Chong An Alchemist with the FlashXDR Tapeless Workflow from HD to 4K ( Creative to Display ) Wow Holdings Hong Kong Last edited by Stewart Chong; January 17th, 2009 at 04:43 AM.

January 17th, 2009, 05:04 AM	#4
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Herman, May I assume that you were impressed with the image? __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 17th, 2009, 06:04 AM	#6
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Herman, We agree on all points. We do feel that we have found the "Sweet Spot" with 100 Mbps Long-GOP. The Flash XDR and the upcoming nanoFlash dramatically improve the images from the under $10,000 cameras, such as the XL H1/XL H1s, EX1/EX3, and others with HD-SDI outputs. Recording a 4:2:2 signal as opposed to the 4:2:0 signal when recorded in camera makes a big improvement in image quality. This was our first opportunity to combine the Flash XDR with the Viper. It was an instant success, Richard is very happy with the quality, and excited about the significant improvements in his workflow. 100 Mbps files are must easier to work with than uncompressed. We will hear more from Richard after the Houston Marathon. This will be an interesting shoot, a real torture test of any codec with 25,000 runners; lots of detail and movement. Richard will be examining the footage in detail after the event. Also, he will be performing other tests. Using an ultra high-end camera, such as the Viper, with the Flash XDR could have shown up flaws in our Flash XDR, but we were able to meet Richard's high standards for quality. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 17th, 2009, 09:12 AM	#8
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Stewart, Just to be clear, Dual-Link HD-SDI is not in our present product plans for 2009. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 17th, 2009, 04:56 AM	#3
Herman Van Deventer Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: cape town South-Africa Posts: 251	2009 / New Year's intention completely demolished on day 17 ! Used the F - word 12 x times watching the Thompson XDR Tiff. Sorry !

January 17th, 2009, 05:43 AM	#5
Herman Van Deventer Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: cape town South-Africa Posts: 251	Dan, Taking "new efforts" from Jpeg 2000 and AVC Intra 50/100 in Consideration, I think the XDR has proved the compression - mpeg "Sweet Spot" right. I have been playing around with HDSI source material - compressed with Jpeg 2000 and AVC INTRA 100, taking a portable 'workflow" in consideration. As is / The Flash XDR seems like the obvious choice. Obviously your source input - in this case , the Thompson attributes a lot to the final result. I think from a marketing perspective - Sample tiffs coming from a XLH1 as "mid range" source will emphasize your product more.There is thousands of "mid range" HDSDI outputs longing for the portable sweet spot. Congratulations with the product !

January 17th, 2009, 08:58 AM	#7
Stewart Chong Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hong Kong - CHINA Posts: 28	Good to hear that XDR is a right choice for 8 or later 10 bit 4:2:2 Full HD recording device for those decent cameras. I have been working on CF card based HD portable recorders for some Film Directors / DOPs here in HKG. In coming days in HK, I will report comments from them on Genesis + XDR / F35 + XDR / RED one + XDR / Kinor + XDR / Varicam + XDR as high-end camera system as well. And D21 + XDR at ARRI ASIA in HK as well. Hope to see an uncompressed HD support soon on Flash XDR, and Dual Link + 2K option in future on " Turbo Flash XDR " in later 2009. Do not forget Stereoscopic 3D will be a big market for CD for their 2 x HDSDI version of FlashXDR. Sorry has SWR-1 not only can do 4:4:4 in SR mode but two HDSDI input of 2 cameras with TC Sync together for Stereoscopic field recording as well. Sorry are so overpriced to me though !!! Again, my 1 cent. Cheers, Stewart Hong Kong - CHINA

January 17th, 2009, 10:23 AM	#9
Stewart Chong Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hong Kong - CHINA Posts: 28	Sorry Dan, I am running too fast. Never too late in over prediction in the fast developing technologies, and I have a great belief that CF based development will move as " fast as llightning " from 2009 ahead.... Yes, I know very clear from your today post for the current time table of present product plans at CD for 2009. No offense to you to say that : I had a Kona 3 card in almost 3 years ago to do dual link HD and 2K uncompressed capturing on my G5 anyway. Anyway, it's a market driven economy to push us to the limit. Respectfully, Stewart HKG - CHINA

January 17th, 2009, 10:29 AM	#10
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Stewart, No problem at all. I just did not want anyone to think that we were promising Dual-Link support. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 17th, 2009, 10:35 AM	#11
Stewart Chong Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hong Kong - CHINA Posts: 28	Yes and Clear Dan. Cheers, Stew.

January 17th, 2009, 01:28 PM	#12
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	Convergent Design Flash XDR Hi Dan: Respectfully, I don't consider this to be much of a test. This is more of a product "endorsement." You take what is considered to be the highest quality digital film production camera in the world operated by a recognized world expert and then plug that into a Flash XDR ? Of course the end result will be great. Why wouldn't the footage be great ? What I think is more of a good test is end result shown on the Convergent Website and other tests taken from the Canon XL H1 HD SDI signal recorded to the XDR.

January 17th, 2009, 01:35 PM	#13
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Mark, The Flash XDR was requested by Mr. Richard Welnowski, he wanted to test the Flash XDR. When one normally records 4:4:4, full uncompressed, one would need to test (or confirm) that 4:2:2, at the desired frame rates, at 100 Mbps, would actually meet his need for quality. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 17th, 2009, 02:02 PM	#14
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	....What will become utterly fascinating will be any possible future tests between the Flash XDR running in full uncompressed mode 4:2:2 recording the 4:2:2 signal out of the Viper. Of course, I understand Mr. Welnowski's requirements for a manageable file size for editorial post. I bet the 50 Mbps setting on the XDR would look pretty darn good out of the Viper camera as well.

January 22nd, 2009, 06:54 PM	#15
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	We now have more images courtesy of Mr. Richard Welnowski. The first is from a still camera, not the viper. It shows the Thomson Viper and the Flash XDR in use in Kansas City, Missouri. Richard was out testing the Flash XDR with his camera. http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...er-KC_2341.jpg This image is a frame capture from the Thomson Viper, as recorded to the Flash XDR at 100 Mbps, 4:2:2 1080p30. http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...Cframe-30p.tif This is also 100 Mbps, 4:2:2, but 1080p24. Notice the motion bluring due to the speed of the vehicles and the shutter speed used. http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...Cframe-24p.tif Richard is currently writing an article documenting his experiences with the Flash XDR. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia Last edited by Dan Keaton; January 23rd, 2009 at 11:58 AM.