Thomson Viper with Flash XDR

[Mark Job]

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

We now have more images courtesy of Mr. Richard Welnowski.

The first is from a still camera, not the viper. It show the Thomson Viper and the Flash XDR in use in Kansas City, Missouri.

Richard was out testing the Flash XDR with his camera.

http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...er-KC_2341.jpg



This image is a frame capture from the Thomson Viper, as recorded to the Flash XDR at 100 Mbps, 4:2:2 1080p30.

http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...Cframe-30p.tif



This is also 100 Mbps, 4:2:2, but 1080p24. Notice the motion bluring due to the speed of the vehicles and the shutter speed used.


http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...Cframe-24p.tif


Richard is currently writing an article documenting his experiences with the Flash XDR.

.....Uhhhh, well- I'm not so impressed this time :-( The first picture of a frame taken from the Flash XDR as recorded by Mr. Welnowski, has excellent, excellent resolution, but the contrast values left alot to be desired to my eye. The first picture from the Viper looked soft & grainy to me Dan. The 24 fps frame looks much sharper, but not as sharp as the still image to XDR. The contrast values are much better in the 24 fps capture as well. There is definitely more information in the shadows of the underpass and less grain in the sky. I bet you this image looks nearly 3D in projection.

[Michael Palermo]

Mark,
I don't think the first image was recorded on the Flash XDR. It's in the frame with the camera. This looks like a behind the scenes shot taken with a separate digital camera.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Michael,

That is correct. This was a shot just to show the setup.

We have numerous mounting options available as well as powering options.

[Mark Job]

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Michael,

That is correct. This was a shot just to show the setup.

We have numerous mounting options available as well as powering options.

....OK. This explains the first image, but not the remaining two. The 30 fps viper frame looks desaturated and slightly blurry. Look at the window detail on the red brick building on the left. However, the 24 fps frame looks much better with improved overall sharpness and much better contrast and details in the shadow area. I think the 24 fps frame looks really good but not the 30 fps.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Friends,

Richard Welnowski asked me to post this latest image.

This is the the same frame that we posted earlier, but using a better technique to capture the image. This is a frame grap from the Viper's footage, as recorded by the Flash XDR at 100 Mbps.

http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...XDR-sf29-c.tif

This replaces the frame grab ending in ...-30p.tif

And this one replaces the -24p.tif

http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...XDR-sf24-c.tif

[Mark Job]

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Friends,

Richard Welnowski asked me to post this latest image.

This is the the same frame that we posted earlier, but using a better technique to capture the image. This is a frame grap from the Viper's footage, as recorded by the Flash XDR at 100 Mbps.

http://convergent-design.fileburst.c...XDR-sf29-c.tif

This replaces the frame grab ending in ...-30p.tif

....Yeah, this image looks a little better, but still, look at the Marriot Hotel to your left. It's a little muddy. Where's the detail in the windows ? Look at the roof of the church. The red tiles seem to smudge slightly. I think the early 24 fps grab of that shot looked much better for some reason. (??) Even with 24 fps's natural motion blur it look really great on the XDR.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Mark Andrew Job

....Yeah, this image looks a little better, but still, look at the Marriot Hotel to your left. It's a little muddy. Where's the detail in the windows ? Look at the roof of the church. The red tiles seem to smudge slightly. I think the early 24 fps grab of that shot looked much better for some reason. (??) Even with 24 fps's natural motion blur it look really great on the XDR.

Look at where the shot is coming from. He's positioned on a live roadway *OUTDOORS* with traffic going by. I'm sure that tripod was moving all over the place. Frankly, I'm impressed it looks as good as it does. Especially that wide.

Does he have the RAW images that came off the thing? I'd imagine many shooters have not see RAW Viper images and have nothing to compare these images to.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Perrone,

I believe that, for these Flash XDR test shots, all recording was done in the Flash XDR at 4:2:2 HL and 100 Mbps.

I do not believe any other HD recorder was used.

[Perrone Ford]

So, are we looking at the Viper in HDStream mode (don't think so) or in the YCrCb mode, which would show color corrections and so forth made in the camera?

I'm not sure what the Flash XDR can ingest from the Viper.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Perrone,

I will get the answer to your question from Richard.

I do know that he put the Viper in 4:2:2 mode so that we could work with the HD-SDI output.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Perrone,

I will get the answer to your question from Richard.

I do know that he put the Viper in 4:2:2 mode so that we could work with the HD-SDI output.

I am just asking out of curiosity. Not like I'll be shooting with the Viper any time soon. Apparently, you can take the RAW output off dual-link SDI, or take 4:2:2 unprocessed over SDI, or YUV over SDI with in-camera color corrections. Since this footage doesn't have the characteristic green tint, I am guessing that the last option was the one used. It WOULD be nice to know if the HDStream mode could be recorded with the XDR since it is also a 4:2:2 stream.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Perrone,

Richard responded to my request and your questions:
(He responded very quickly, the delay has been on my part.)


I only record 4:2:2 YCrCb format to Flash XDR.

I could record HD Stream 4:2:2 also, but Viper is a 10bit and XDR is 8bit, therefore after I will have to grade image in 8 bit, which I do not think is good idea and will complicate workflow in post.

I setup the color balance, and all other parameters in the camera and used single HD-SDI processed signal to feed the Flash XDR.

If XDR becomes a 10-bit device I will record in 10-bit log output HD Stream and will grade the image later, this will give more flexibility in grading the final image in post.

Also with FilmStream and HD stream bypassing the processing, this increases the quality of image, especially noise in dark parts of image and you can gain couple of f-stops latitude.

Richard



So, he recorded in HD-SDI 4:2:2, with the image pre-processed in the camera, so that the Flash XDR directly recorded the desired image. This allows for a faster workflow in the Non-Linear Editor, exactly what Richard was wanting.

When we have Full Uncompressed with 10-Bit / 8-Bit available as an option, then Richard will have his choice of how to record out of the Viper.

The Flash XDR cannot handle 4:4:4, it has to be 4:2:2.

[Perrone Ford]

Yea, the HDStream is 4:2:2 but 10-bit. Wasn't sure if you guys could handle that. Keep up the good work on this unit. I've spent a bundle in the past 8 months moving to HD here at the office, and still have more to go. I'd love to get one of these units in the future though.

[Mark Job]

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Perrone,

Richard responded to my request and your questions:
(He responded very quickly, the delay has been on my part.)


I only record 4:2:2 YCrCb format to Flash XDR.

I could record HD Stream 4:2:2 also, but Viper is a 10bit and XDR is 8bit, therefore after I will have to grade image in 8 bit, which I do not think is good idea and will complicate workflow in post.

I setup the color balance, and all other parameters in the camera and used single HD-SDI processed signal to feed the Flash XDR.

If XDR becomes a 10-bit device I will record in 10-bit log output HD Stream and will grade the image later, this will give more flexibility in grading the final image in post.

Also with FilmStream and HD stream bypassing the processing, this increases the quality of image, especially noise in dark parts of image and you can gain couple of f-stops latitude.

Richard



So, he recorded in HD-SDI 4:2:2, with the image pre-processed in the camera, so that the Flash XDR directly recorded the desired image. This allows for a faster workflow in the Non-Linear Editor, exactly what Richard was wanting.

When we have Full Uncompressed with 10-Bit / 8-Bit available as an option, then Richard will have his choice of how to record out of the Viper.

The Flash XDR cannot handle 4:4:4, it has to be 4:2:2.

....Huh ? Flash XDR is only 8 Bit ? Ugghhhhh ! I strongly dislike color grading in 8 bit. Shooting doesn't matter, but posting with an 8 bit file sure does ! One of the reasons we went up to Avid Media Composer from Xpress Pro, was to be able to import, capture edit and color grade in full 10 bit. I find the difference is especially noticeable when you have to deliver to a crippled video format like those for the Internet. Web video has improved enormously over the past two years, but I find it easier to keep image density and color renditions accurate if I encode from a 10 bit versus an 8 bit file. I have also observed color grading to be much more precise with those extra 2 bits. One wouldn't have thought there would be much of a difference, but there is. However, the 100 Mb 8 bit file quality of the Flash XDR is very, very clean.

[Perrone Ford]

Just because you record in 8 bit doesn't mean you have to post in it...