Updated Convergent Designs Flash XDR F.A.Q.

Chris Hurd · November 15th, 2007, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Langeman

... if you were to use the HD SDI from the Sony EX1, could you record DVCPRO HD on the XDR?

For the Flash XDR to transcode the EX1's output into DVCPRO HD, it would require a license from Panasonic... which isn't likely to happen.

Brian Langeman · November 15th, 2007, 10:08 AM

OK. So then can FCP 6 work with the 160 Mbps I Frame files that the XDR records? In any way?

Michael Galvan · November 15th, 2007, 10:55 PM

Using ProRes 422 HQ is probably your best bet in maintaining the quality of your footage, sans using Uncompressed.

Paul Curtis · November 16th, 2007, 05:55 AM

Whlist the XDR looks like a fantastic idea i do have to say that 8 bit is no where near as attractive as 10 bit and whilst i understand that this is a factor of the MPEG2, i have to ask whether there's an alternative compressor that would be better (working with cineform for example)

The reason i say this is i feel that colour depth is more important than colour resolution for most people (whether they know it or not!). I like the EX for example and it might well be outputting 10bit on the HD-SDI (i don't think anyone knows for sure), but to get 4:2:2 10bit out of that camera would make the XDR very attractive (to me anyway).

It could be that by finding a way to include 10bit you lengthen the lifespan of the box and, indirectly, peoples cameras because surely 10bit+ will be the next important evolution for these levels of cameras.

just some musing...

cheers
paul

Bill Ravens · November 16th, 2007, 08:19 AM

In the For What It's Worth category:
I just assembled a Compact Flash reader that interfaces thru SATA II. It's possible to reformat the CF card as NTSF with this system. There's a number of other advantages to using SATA II, including, RAID configurations, high transfer rates and hot swapping.

Mike Schell · November 16th, 2007, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Langeman

OK. So then can FCP 6 work with the 160 Mbps I Frame files that the XDR records? In any way?

Hi Brian-
We are working with all the NLEs for this support. Since Sony is introducing a 4:2:2 camera (early next year) which is based on the Long-GOP of this same CODEC, we expect I-Frame only support to come very quickly. I-Frame only is really just a subset of Long-GOP (without the B and P frames).

Mike Schell

Mike Schell · November 16th, 2007, 01:01 PM

Hi Paul-

We agree. Of course the camera must support 10-bit (effective) HD-SDI output, which is reportedly the case for the EX but not so for all cameras.

Stay tuned for more announcements on Flash XDR...

Best-
Mike Schell

David Parks · November 18th, 2007, 12:15 AM

http://www.ikegami.com/IKEGAMI_GV_EXPO_2007_FINAL.html
Quote from Ikegami::
"HDN-X10 EditcamHD tapeless camcorder is the first to use Avid's high quality DNxHD high-quality mastering codec to deliver HD resolution, full-raster (1920 by 1080) images that can be edited on laptop and desktop systems in real time. The DNxHD codec is an open system that can be licensed for free, ensuring viability far into the future. "

The HDN-X10 EditcamHD currently employs a data rate of 145 Mbps (Megabits per second) to provide 1080/60i, 1080/24p, and 720/60p recording and playback...

Mike,

Here you go. Avid DNxHD. It's FREE and could work at 10bit at 145Mbits/sec.

Even though Avid is going through a slight downturn, there are still a lot of Avids around. Maybe you could add DNxHD 145 to the codecs from Sony.

You should give them a call.

Cheers.

Mike Schell · November 18th, 2007, 04:50 AM

Hi David-

Good info, I'll give them a call and study it some more. It all depends on how difficult it is to implement the CODEC into our hardware (FPGA).

Thanks-
Mike

David Heath · November 18th, 2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks

Avid DNxHD. It's FREE and could work at 10bit at 145Mbits/sec.

Maybe you could add DNxHD 145 to the codecs from Sony.

In which case, what would be the situation with ProRes 422, for FCP users?

Paul Curtis · November 19th, 2007, 08:43 AM

of course after posting the bit about cineform i stumble across this

http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

whilst that's HDMI perhaps there's a good partnership there somewhere?

cheers
paul

Chris Hurd · November 19th, 2007, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Curtis

Cineform... perhaps there's a good partnership there somewhere?

There's good competition there somewhere.

David Parks · November 19th, 2007, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Heath

In which case, what would be the situation with ProRes 422, for FCP users?

Wow. That would be amazing.

This brings up a point. It would seem to me that the struggle between what is an aquisition format and a post format might get solved with a device like Mike's. Think about this. We've always had to make sure our edit systems conform with our camera selections. And it at times it has been a real pain.

For years the NLE makers have had the very difficult task of taking a codec specification, HDCAM, DVCPro HD, HDV, ADVCHD( and the many more iterations of frame rates, designed to encode and transport to a recording device, and make it editable. If you think about, those are two completely different processes. And we wait 6 months, to a year, to never, for our NLE of choice to be compatible with our cameras. This could change all that.

Mike, if your device happens to take Avid DNxHD, Apple ProRez, Canopus HQ, you could make life incredibly easier. And maybe you don't market the device to include all of them in the same package. You sell the device as an Avid box with only that one codec. Or the ProRez. ...etc.

Then we pick the camera for its shooting capabilities and not the codec that wasn't really designed for editing. You could use anything ranging from a HV20(HDMI to HDSDI converter needed) to a Red straight into a codec that you easily start editing with.

Imagine the possibilities!!!!

Sergio Perez · December 20th, 2007, 10:25 PM

To the Convergent Design team: How is the development going? Any update? New codec announcements? Availability?

Thomas Smet · December 21st, 2007, 09:02 AM

What about mjpeg? It is for the most part free and works with a lot of NLE's. The problem with Cineform is that the codec mostly lives in the Adobe or Vegas world right now. If you use another NLE you are SOL. Avid DNx is nice but it only works for Avid people so if you don't use that either you are SOL.

A lot of people usually snub mjpeg but what they don't realize is that mjpeg isn't much different then I frame only mpeg2. The same sort of DCT artifacts are there. The only problem is the device would have to be setup to let the user choose to wrap the mjpeg in a quicktime file or a AVI file.

Another area where you guys seem be be forgetting is nice about the XDR isn't just the 160 mbit/s mode but the other lower bitrate modes. IPB 80 to 100 mbit 4:2:2 is virtually perfect and at a much lower datarate then what any of the other codecs could ever dream of doing. Even 50 mbits/s 4:2:2 mpeg2 is pretty darn good and will be good enough just to give people who are fine with XDCAM compression that tiny extra chroma boost they may want. 50 mbits equals a lot of video per card compared to using Cineform, mjpeg or DNx. This means the choice to use mpeg2 gives the user a lot of options as to what quality they want and how much video they can get per card. Sure other codecs are nice but they are usually a one option only type of codec.

November 15th, 2007, 10:55 PM	#78
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	Using ProRes 422 HQ is probably your best bet in maintaining the quality of your footage, sans using Uncompressed. __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

November 16th, 2007, 05:55 AM	#79
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	10 bit Whlist the XDR looks like a fantastic idea i do have to say that 8 bit is no where near as attractive as 10 bit and whilst i understand that this is a factor of the MPEG2, i have to ask whether there's an alternative compressor that would be better (working with cineform for example) The reason i say this is i feel that colour depth is more important than colour resolution for most people (whether they know it or not!). I like the EX for example and it might well be outputting 10bit on the HD-SDI (i don't think anyone knows for sure), but to get 4:2:2 10bit out of that camera would make the XDR very attractive (to me anyway). It could be that by finding a way to include 10bit you lengthen the lifespan of the box and, indirectly, peoples cameras because surely 10bit+ will be the next important evolution for these levels of cameras. just some musing... cheers paul

November 18th, 2007, 12:15 AM	#83
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Codec Licensed for Free! http://www.ikegami.com/IKEGAMI_GV_EXPO_2007_FINAL.html Quote from Ikegami:: "HDN-X10 EditcamHD tapeless camcorder is the first to use Avid's high quality DNxHD high-quality mastering codec to deliver HD resolution, full-raster (1920 by 1080) images that can be edited on laptop and desktop systems in real time. The DNxHD codec is an open system that can be licensed for free, ensuring viability far into the future. " The HDN-X10 EditcamHD currently employs a data rate of 145 Mbps (Megabits per second) to provide 1080/60i, 1080/24p, and 720/60p recording and playback... Mike, Here you go. Avid DNxHD. It's FREE and could work at 10bit at 145Mbits/sec. Even though Avid is going through a slight downturn, there are still a lot of Avids around. Maybe you could add DNxHD 145 to the codecs from Sony. You should give them a call. Cheers. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

November 19th, 2007, 08:43 AM	#86
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	cineform of course after posting the bit about cineform i stumble across this http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm whilst that's HDMI perhaps there's a good partnership there somewhere? cheers paul

December 20th, 2007, 10:25 PM	#89
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	To the Convergent Design team: How is the development going? Any update? New codec announcements? Availability? __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

November 15th, 2007, 10:08 AM	#77
Brian Langeman Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leamington, Ontario, Canada Posts: 25	OK. So then can FCP 6 work with the 160 Mbps I Frame files that the XDR records? In any way?

November 16th, 2007, 08:19 AM	#80
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	In the For What It's Worth category: I just assembled a Compact Flash reader that interfaces thru SATA II. It's possible to reformat the CF card as NTSF with this system. There's a number of other advantages to using SATA II, including, RAID configurations, high transfer rates and hot swapping.

November 16th, 2007, 01:01 PM	#82
Mike Schell Convergent Design Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 869	Hi Paul- We agree. Of course the camera must support 10-bit (effective) HD-SDI output, which is reportedly the case for the EX but not so for all cameras. Stay tuned for more announcements on Flash XDR... Best- Mike Schell

November 18th, 2007, 04:50 AM	#84
Mike Schell Convergent Design Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 869	Hi David- Good info, I'll give them a call and study it some more. It all depends on how difficult it is to implement the CODEC into our hardware (FPGA). Thanks- Mike

December 21st, 2007, 09:02 AM	#90
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	What about mjpeg? It is for the most part free and works with a lot of NLE's. The problem with Cineform is that the codec mostly lives in the Adobe or Vegas world right now. If you use another NLE you are SOL. Avid DNx is nice but it only works for Avid people so if you don't use that either you are SOL. A lot of people usually snub mjpeg but what they don't realize is that mjpeg isn't much different then I frame only mpeg2. The same sort of DCT artifacts are there. The only problem is the device would have to be setup to let the user choose to wrap the mjpeg in a quicktime file or a AVI file. Another area where you guys seem be be forgetting is nice about the XDR isn't just the 160 mbit/s mode but the other lower bitrate modes. IPB 80 to 100 mbit 4:2:2 is virtually perfect and at a much lower datarate then what any of the other codecs could ever dream of doing. Even 50 mbits/s 4:2:2 mpeg2 is pretty darn good and will be good enough just to give people who are fine with XDCAM compression that tiny extra chroma boost they may want. 50 mbits equals a lot of video per card compared to using Cineform, mjpeg or DNx. This means the choice to use mpeg2 gives the user a lot of options as to what quality they want and how much video they can get per card. Sure other codecs are nice but they are usually a one option only type of codec.