Convergent Designs Flash XDR

John Mitchell · July 28th, 2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schell

Hi Everyone-
OK, I get the message, we'll put in all the formats regardless of the NLE support. It is actually quite simple to add all the formats, but we'll likely have to pony up for an Iconix camera since it's about the only device that can generate all the various flavors for HD-SDI.

You could do it with a Blu-ray player and an HDMI to HD-SDI converter (eg nano-connect:-).

Does that make sense?

Mike Schell · July 28th, 2008, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

You could do it with a Blu-ray player and an HDMI to HD-SDI converter (eg nano-connect:-).

Does that make sense?

Hi John-
Yes, that might work fine. But I think we'll need to get an Iconix anyway for long-term compatibility testing. A considerable number of customers plan to use the Flash XDR / nanoFlash with the Iconix camera.

John Richard · July 29th, 2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schell

Hi Everyone-
OK, I get the message, we'll put in all the formats regardless of the NLE support. It is actually quite simple to add all the formats, but we'll likely have to pony up for an Iconix camera since it's about the only device that can generate all the various flavors for HD-SDI.

Maybe Iconix would be smart to provide C-V with a loaner since their camera and the XDR/Nano are a perfect marriage for their miniaturized system.

Thomas Smet · July 29th, 2008, 09:46 AM

Couldn't you just drop every other frame from a 720p 50p SDI signal? Like you said most cameras even if the user is shooting 25p will still output as 50p via SDI but that user would still want the video encoded as 25p to save bandwidth or boost quality. 720p 25p at 50 mbits/s is really awesome looking.

Mike Schell · July 31st, 2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Couldn't you just drop every other frame from a 720p 50p SDI signal? Like you said most cameras even if the user is shooting 25p will still output as 50p via SDI but that user would still want the video encoded as 25p to save bandwidth or boost quality. 720p 25p at 50 mbits/s is really awesome looking.

Hi Thomas-
Yes, this is certainly a possibly solution. Dropping every other frame would be a simple answer.

John Mitchell · August 5th, 2008, 08:33 PM

Do the new Sandisk Extreme III 16G cards meet the Flash XDR's specs?... noticed Sandisk have a good rebate deal going for US users (bit strange because you get it inthe form of a pre-paid Visa card so it ain't cash)...

Details on B&H's website.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...pactFlash.html

E.J. Sadler · August 5th, 2008, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

Do the new Sandisk Extreme III 16G cards meet the Flash XDR's specs?... noticed Sandisk have a good rebate deal going for US users (bit strange because you get it inthe form of a pre-paid Visa card so it ain't cash)...

Details on B&H's website.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...pactFlash.html

The minimum data rate on the new Extreme IIIs is 30MB/s or 240Mbps which is more than enough for any of the MPEG 2 data rates.

Dan Keaton · August 6th, 2008, 03:41 AM

Dear E. J.,

Currently, the Transcend 16 GB 300x and the Transcend 32 GB 133x are the fully qualified and recommended CompactFlash Cards.

The Transcend cards more than meet their specifications. Mike calls these cards "Overachievers”!

We are waiting to test the Microdia 64 GB card. I assume that this will be the first of many 64 GB cards. The Microdia one is rated at 300x both read and write, but we do not know the price at this time.

The SanDisk may work just fine.

E.J, I know you know this, but for others that are reading this: The speed ratings of many manufacturers cards, such as 133x, usually indicate the fastest that the card can be read under ideal conditions, while the write speeds are usually much slower.

For certain premium cards, the read and write speeds are essentially the same.

For the Flash XDR and nanoFlash, the write speed is much more critical.

Sound Devices, on their website, has the detailed results of their testing of CompactFlash cards.

Please note that Sound Devices' tests are great for general comparison of various CompactFlash cards. When the same card is used within the Flash XDR or nanoFlash, the speeds will be different since we do not have to go through a Firewire interface.

http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/re...ats/cf-speeds/

I am certain that we have tested the SanDisk Extreme III 16 GB card, I just do not have the specific results with me at this time.

E.J. Sadler · August 6th, 2008, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

For certain premium cards, the read and write speeds are essentially the same.

This is true for Sandisk as they rate their cards based on minimum write speeds. This is why Sandisks are the only cards that consistently perform in a RED. It's nice that unlike most other manufacturers, they don't market their cards based on the highest achievable read speed.

Although I completely understand the need to tell people which cards are 'qualified and recommended' I know that our Extreme III/IVs will have absolutely no issues in the XDR.

Dan Keaton · August 6th, 2008, 09:41 AM

Dear E.J.,

The $90 rebate on the SanDisk Extreme III 16 GB card certainly makes this attractive.

I will get an answer as soon as possible.

E.J. Sadler · August 6th, 2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

I am certain that we have tested the SanDisk Extreme III 16 GB card, I just do not have the specific results with me at this time.

The current Extreme IIIs write speeds are now higher than they where, so you need to make sure which generation card you've tested.

Of course given how differently CF cards perform in different devices, I guess I should just shut up. The Transcends are cheaper anyway.

Dan Keaton · August 6th, 2008, 09:53 AM

Dear E.J.,

Yes, that is exactly the problem.

In years past, when a CompactFlash card manufacturer came out with a specific model of a card, one could expect that future cards of the same model, from the same brand, would have the same performance.

A few years ago this changed for some manufacturers, but not others.

Thus, if one has a SanDisk Extreme III card, it may not perform the same as another SanDisk Extreme III, of the same capacity, purchased at the same time, or at a different time.

As you can see, with the performance that we need from each CompactFlash card to ensure glitch-free recordings, this causes us a problem.

Mike Schell · August 7th, 2008, 11:15 AM

The SanDisk cards might work OK in Flash XDR and nanoFlash, but we will need to test and qualify. To be honest, our engineers are maxed out now developing the QT and MXF code. So, it may be a month or so before we can do the necessary tests for the different CF cards. In the meantime, we're asking that everyone just use the Transcend card, since they seem to be very reasonably priced and widely available.

In the future, we do plan to publish a list of our test results with various CF cards and readers. I have asked our engineers to develop a test program to allow users to evaluate the write and read performance of a given CF card in Flash XDR and nanoFlash. The test results would be displayed on the LCD screen.

Mihai Nicolau · September 7th, 2008, 05:30 PM

Hello.
I've been watching the XDR for a long time now (well actually checking out the site and hearing some bits of information here and there) but i'm seriously thinking about purchasing one.

I have a couple of very noobish questions so please if you have the time answer them or direct me to some links in this thread where I can find the answers because I didn't have the nerves to go through 19 pages of thread:

1) The critical one. I have an EX1. I'm not sure what kind of video signal the camera outputs through its SDI port. Can the XDR capture 1080p from this camera or at least 720p ?

2) As the SDI port will already be occupied with the XDR if i have an external monitor with SDI inputs what are my options ? I assume I can connect the monitor through the SDI interface of the XDR right ?

3) Can I record both to the EX1's cards and to the XDR simultaneously ?

4) How is the playback of files integrated in the XDR ? I've read something about this but i didn't quite understand. Is it similar to a tape - i have to manually rewind to the part that i want - or to EX1's clips ?

5) Audio - if i understand corectly i can plug an external microphone directly into the XDR instead of the XLR inputs of my EX1 ? Does the XDR have phantom power ?
Is there a better audio quality if i do this ?

Can i use all 4 (XDR + EX1) inputs to put them into 4 channels ?
What are the audio capabilities of the XDR (no of channels sampling rate etc. ) compared to the HD standard ?

6) ummm...is it available ? :D

Thanks very much and sorry if my questions have been asked countless times before.

Dan Keaton · September 7th, 2008, 08:04 PM

Hello.
I've been watching the XDR for a long time now (well actually checking out the site and hearing some bits of information here and there) but i'm seriously thinking about purchasing one.

I have a couple of very noobish questions so please if you have the time answer them or direct me to some links in this thread where I can find the answers because I didn't have the nerves to go through 19 pages of thread:

1) The critical one. I have an EX1. I'm not sure what kind of video signal the camera outputs through its SDI port. Can the XDR capture 1080p from this camera or at least 720p ?

>>> The Flash XDR can handle, as input, the datastreams that the EX1 is capable of producing through its HD-SDI output port.

Without getting too technical, the EX1 is not capable, as far as I know, of producing 1080p60, but it is capable of producing 1080i60 and other 1080p modes, but just not 1080p60 as this is more data than a HD-SDI single link (at 1.485 Gigabits per second) can handle. It take a HD-SDI dual link (which the EX1 does not have) or a 3.0 Gigabits per second single link (which the EX1 does not have, as far as I know).

Sorry for the very technical answer, but I did not think the simple answer was adequate.

The Flash XDR can not transpose 1080i to 720p or vice versa. The signal from your camera is what is recorded, except that we will compress the HD-SDI signal to one of the user selectable modes. We just can't change 1080i to 720p or 720p to 1080i.

2) As the SDI port will already be occupied with the XDR if i have an external monitor with SDI inputs what are my options ? I assume I can connect the monitor through the SDI interface of the XDR right ?

>>> Yes, the HD-SDI output of the Flash XDR is designed specifically for this purpose.

3) Can I record both to the EX1's cards and to the XDR simultaneously ?

>>> Yes. And you can record on the Flash XDR without recording in camera.

4) How is the playback of files integrated in the XDR ? I've read something about this but i didn't quite understand. Is it similar to a tape - i have to manually rewind to the part that i want - or to EX1's clips ?

>>> The Flash XDR is a file based system. After recording a clip, you can just hit play and it will playback what you just recorded. Or you can select another clip to playback.

>>> If you are playing back, you can hit record and it will start recording immediately, but it will not overwrite any existing takes, it will automatically advance to the proper place for the recording to start. It does this instantly, it is not like tape.

5) Audio - if i understand corectly i can plug an external microphone directly into the XDR instead of the XLR inputs of my EX1 ?

>>> Yes. And you can connect the XLR outputs of the Flash XDR to the XLR inputs of the EX1 to record a sound track in camera, if desired.

Does the XDR have phantom power ?

>>> Yes. +48V phantom power is available and it is user selectable.

Is there a better audio quality if i do this ?

>>> For most all cameras, yes. The Flash XDR is capable of 24 bit audio and the audio circuits use very high quality components. Our goal was to produce very high quality audio.

Can i use all 4 (XDR + EX1) inputs to put them into 4 channels ?
What are the audio capabilities of the XDR (no of channels sampling rate etc. ) compared to the HD standard ?

>>> Our plans are to enable what you have requested. This will be in a future firmware release. It may be the the current firmware release, but I do not think so.

>>> The Flash XDR will record up to 8 audio channels embedded in the HD-SDI input stream. Our goal is to record embedded and/or external audio, or a combination of both, as desired, up to a total of 8 audio channels.

The recordings will be at 16 bit or 24 bit (user selectable) and 48K samples per second.

6) ummm...is it available ? :D

We have a backlog of orders at this time which we are attempting to fill as fast as we can.

Thanks very much and sorry if my questions have been asked countless times before.

>>> We are happy to answer your questions. Please feel free to ask some more.

August 6th, 2008, 03:41 AM	#278
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear E. J., Currently, the Transcend 16 GB 300x and the Transcend 32 GB 133x are the fully qualified and recommended CompactFlash Cards. The Transcend cards more than meet their specifications. Mike calls these cards "Overachievers”! We are waiting to test the Microdia 64 GB card. I assume that this will be the first of many 64 GB cards. The Microdia one is rated at 300x both read and write, but we do not know the price at this time. The SanDisk may work just fine. E.J, I know you know this, but for others that are reading this: The speed ratings of many manufacturers cards, such as 133x, usually indicate the fastest that the card can be read under ideal conditions, while the write speeds are usually much slower. For certain premium cards, the read and write speeds are essentially the same. For the Flash XDR and nanoFlash, the write speed is much more critical. Sound Devices, on their website, has the detailed results of their testing of CompactFlash cards. Please note that Sound Devices' tests are great for general comparison of various CompactFlash cards. When the same card is used within the Flash XDR or nanoFlash, the speeds will be different since we do not have to go through a Firewire interface. http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/re...ats/cf-speeds/ I am certain that we have tested the SanDisk Extreme III 16 GB card, I just do not have the specific results with me at this time. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

August 6th, 2008, 09:41 AM	#280
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear E.J., The $90 rebate on the SanDisk Extreme III 16 GB card certainly makes this attractive. I will get an answer as soon as possible. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

August 6th, 2008, 09:53 AM	#282
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear E.J., Yes, that is exactly the problem. In years past, when a CompactFlash card manufacturer came out with a specific model of a card, one could expect that future cards of the same model, from the same brand, would have the same performance. A few years ago this changed for some manufacturers, but not others. Thus, if one has a SanDisk Extreme III card, it may not perform the same as another SanDisk Extreme III, of the same capacity, purchased at the same time, or at a different time. As you can see, with the performance that we need from each CompactFlash card to ensure glitch-free recordings, this causes us a problem. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

August 7th, 2008, 11:15 AM	#283
Mike Schell Convergent Design Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 869	The SanDisk cards might work OK in Flash XDR and nanoFlash, but we will need to test and qualify. To be honest, our engineers are maxed out now developing the QT and MXF code. So, it may be a month or so before we can do the necessary tests for the different CF cards. In the meantime, we're asking that everyone just use the Transcend card, since they seem to be very reasonably priced and widely available. In the future, we do plan to publish a list of our test results with various CF cards and readers. I have asked our engineers to develop a test program to allow users to evaluate the write and read performance of a given CF card in Flash XDR and nanoFlash. The test results would be displayed on the LCD screen. __________________ Mike Schell Convergent Design

September 7th, 2008, 08:04 PM	#285
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Hello. I've been watching the XDR for a long time now (well actually checking out the site and hearing some bits of information here and there) but i'm seriously thinking about purchasing one. I have a couple of very noobish questions so please if you have the time answer them or direct me to some links in this thread where I can find the answers because I didn't have the nerves to go through 19 pages of thread: 1) The critical one. I have an EX1. I'm not sure what kind of video signal the camera outputs through its SDI port. Can the XDR capture 1080p from this camera or at least 720p ? >>> The Flash XDR can handle, as input, the datastreams that the EX1 is capable of producing through its HD-SDI output port. Without getting too technical, the EX1 is not capable, as far as I know, of producing 1080p60, but it is capable of producing 1080i60 and other 1080p modes, but just not 1080p60 as this is more data than a HD-SDI single link (at 1.485 Gigabits per second) can handle. It take a HD-SDI dual link (which the EX1 does not have) or a 3.0 Gigabits per second single link (which the EX1 does not have, as far as I know). Sorry for the very technical answer, but I did not think the simple answer was adequate. The Flash XDR can not transpose 1080i to 720p or vice versa. The signal from your camera is what is recorded, except that we will compress the HD-SDI signal to one of the user selectable modes. We just can't change 1080i to 720p or 720p to 1080i. 2) As the SDI port will already be occupied with the XDR if i have an external monitor with SDI inputs what are my options ? I assume I can connect the monitor through the SDI interface of the XDR right ? >>> Yes, the HD-SDI output of the Flash XDR is designed specifically for this purpose. 3) Can I record both to the EX1's cards and to the XDR simultaneously ? >>> Yes. And you can record on the Flash XDR without recording in camera. 4) How is the playback of files integrated in the XDR ? I've read something about this but i didn't quite understand. Is it similar to a tape - i have to manually rewind to the part that i want - or to EX1's clips ? >>> The Flash XDR is a file based system. After recording a clip, you can just hit play and it will playback what you just recorded. Or you can select another clip to playback. >>> If you are playing back, you can hit record and it will start recording immediately, but it will not overwrite any existing takes, it will automatically advance to the proper place for the recording to start. It does this instantly, it is not like tape. 5) Audio - if i understand corectly i can plug an external microphone directly into the XDR instead of the XLR inputs of my EX1 ? >>> Yes. And you can connect the XLR outputs of the Flash XDR to the XLR inputs of the EX1 to record a sound track in camera, if desired. Does the XDR have phantom power ? >>> Yes. +48V phantom power is available and it is user selectable. Is there a better audio quality if i do this ? >>> For most all cameras, yes. The Flash XDR is capable of 24 bit audio and the audio circuits use very high quality components. Our goal was to produce very high quality audio. Can i use all 4 (XDR + EX1) inputs to put them into 4 channels ? What are the audio capabilities of the XDR (no of channels sampling rate etc. ) compared to the HD standard ? >>> Our plans are to enable what you have requested. This will be in a future firmware release. It may be the the current firmware release, but I do not think so. >>> The Flash XDR will record up to 8 audio channels embedded in the HD-SDI input stream. Our goal is to record embedded and/or external audio, or a combination of both, as desired, up to a total of 8 audio channels. The recordings will be at 16 bit or 24 bit (user selectable) and 48K samples per second. 6) ummm...is it available ? :D We have a backlog of orders at this time which we are attempting to fill as fast as we can. Thanks very much and sorry if my questions have been asked countless times before. >>> We are happy to answer your questions. Please feel free to ask some more. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 29th, 2008, 09:46 AM	#274
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Couldn't you just drop every other frame from a 720p 50p SDI signal? Like you said most cameras even if the user is shooting 25p will still output as 50p via SDI but that user would still want the video encoded as 25p to save bandwidth or boost quality. 720p 25p at 50 mbits/s is really awesome looking.

August 5th, 2008, 08:33 PM	#276
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Do the new Sandisk Extreme III 16G cards meet the Flash XDR's specs?... noticed Sandisk have a good rebate deal going for US users (bit strange because you get it inthe form of a pre-paid Visa card so it ain't cash)... Details on B&H's website. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...pactFlash.html

September 7th, 2008, 05:30 PM	#284
Mihai Nicolau New Boot Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Romania Posts: 23	Hello. I've been watching the XDR for a long time now (well actually checking out the site and hearing some bits of information here and there) but i'm seriously thinking about purchasing one. I have a couple of very noobish questions so please if you have the time answer them or direct me to some links in this thread where I can find the answers because I didn't have the nerves to go through 19 pages of thread: 1) The critical one. I have an EX1. I'm not sure what kind of video signal the camera outputs through its SDI port. Can the XDR capture 1080p from this camera or at least 720p ? 2) As the SDI port will already be occupied with the XDR if i have an external monitor with SDI inputs what are my options ? I assume I can connect the monitor through the SDI interface of the XDR right ? 3) Can I record both to the EX1's cards and to the XDR simultaneously ? 4) How is the playback of files integrated in the XDR ? I've read something about this but i didn't quite understand. Is it similar to a tape - i have to manually rewind to the part that i want - or to EX1's clips ? 5) Audio - if i understand corectly i can plug an external microphone directly into the XDR instead of the XLR inputs of my EX1 ? Does the XDR have phantom power ? Is there a better audio quality if i do this ? Can i use all 4 (XDR + EX1) inputs to put them into 4 channels ? What are the audio capabilities of the XDR (no of channels sampling rate etc. ) compared to the HD standard ? 6) ummm...is it available ? :D Thanks very much and sorry if my questions have been asked countless times before.