Convergent Designs Flash XDR

[Mike Schell]

Originally Posted by Noah Yuan-Vogel

one thing i think that might be important to keep in mind when comparing codecs especially through histograms is that the XDR is probably the only codec that isnt scaling the input*. seems pretty likely that the differences in the histogram might be related to the fact that different pixel values are being created through the combining/filtering/averaging of surrounding pixel values. that might be all you are seeing in the histograms. of course that is a wonderful thing, since scaling introduces various kinds of artifacts and of course softening itself, but im not sure those histograms tell us much about the compression codecs and how they compare. perhaps you could throw in another codec for comparison that supports 1080p without scaling, such as 50 or 35mbps xdcam or even something more competative like hdcamsr or cineform (especially relevant if cineform ever comes out with their similar solid state recording device)?

*for reference, dvcprohd scales the image to 1280x1080 and hdv scales it to 1440x1080, whereas xdr maintains the full 1920x1080 frame

Hi Noah-
I think you analysis is spot on. I also suspect that the changes in the histograms are largely caused by the horizontal sub-sampling used in HDV and DVCProHD. You can really see the differences on resolution comparison charts. The EX1/EX3 should really shine given the full 1920x1080 sensors combined with the full-raster MPEG2 CODEC used in XDR. This combo will completely eliminate any horizontal resizing (up or down) through acquisition and post production.

[Adam Letch]

I can't wait, I just had to post, I waited almost a week (pat myself on the back).

But Mike can you post some footage, and to raise the stakes and see what a change it'll make for us, and yes its a bias request, but can you shoot something with a JVC HD251 in lowish light without gain, and heck, why not with maybe 3db gain.

Forgive my impatience, but I look at my noisy JVC footage, as great a camera as it is, and think "More", I need "More" (which when it comes to noise actually means "Less" I need "Less"!)

The Canon XLH1 and EX1 are great cameras, but they have a lotter lower noise levels than the JVC, so that's also why I think it would be a good test, and maybe if you record simultaneously hdv to tape and sdi to CF, then post both avi's, we could see back to back what kind of difference to expect?

I haven't yet used my SDI output, so I don't know if you can simultaneously do both tape and SDI, I presume because you can do firewire out and tape that you can.

Hey there's one born every minute, but if you want some beta testing in severe hot and dusty enviroments, I'll volunteer, I'll be in Australia's Outback shooting a doco possible to become TV series soon.

cheers

Adam

And sorry for being too zealous here

:-P

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Adam,

We share your excitement.

We are making solid progress in our final steps to deliver the Flash XDR.

We have an XL H1 and an XH G1 in house for testing. We also have access to the Sony EX1.

We plan on recording footage, using a few cameras, using the Flash XDR, recording to Compact Flash. Then we plan on posting the resulting files so that others can see and work with the footage.

If we can arrange access to the JVC HD251, then we should be able to perform some tests, as soon as we can find the time. When we do so, we will be happy to record under the conditions you specify, if at all possible.

I have not studied the JVC HD251, but I feel confident that you should be able to record to tape and output HD-SDI simultaneously.

[Matthew Pugerude]

Just catching up on this product. This looks very interesting! When NLE support is up an running are you expected to be able to use the XDCAM software or the FCP P2 log and capture window. I am looking at the Sony EX3 with a Letus Extreme setup. Just wondering how to get the footage in to FCP.

[Ray Bell]

The XDR looks like a great product... a question I keep asking myself...

How do you see Cineform working with the XDR...

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Ray,

I assume that if you are using Cineform now, you do one of the following:

1. You capture your footage creating a file on your hard disk drive, then use Cineform to encode/transcode the footage.

2. You bypass the capture process by using a memory medium other than tape that can be read by your computer and use Cineform to encode/transcode your footage directly from your source footage.

The Flash XDR allows you to use both of the above methods to encode/transcode your footage into the Cineform codec.

[George Kroonder]

Originally Posted by Ray Bell

How do you see Cineform working with the XDR...

The XDR uses an MPEG2 codec, so if you need Cineform for your workflow you can transcode it using Prospect.

George/

[Mike Schell]

Originally Posted by Matthew Pugerude

Just catching up on this product. This looks very interesting! When NLE support is up an running are you expected to be able to use the XDCAM software or the FCP P2 log and capture window. I am looking at the Sony EX3 with a Letus Extreme setup. Just wondering how to get the footage in to FCP.

Hi Matthew-
We are working with the Final Cut Pro team now to seamlessly allow you to bring footage into the log and capture window. I hope to have a press release this week detailing the planned integration.

[Adam Letch]

Mike I can't see anywhere 720 25p support, I know you can drop 720 50p onto a 25p timeline, but is there a reason for this?

Or maybe simply I can't find it, the convergent site doesn't have it listed in the specs

thanks

Adam

[Mike Schell]

Originally Posted by Adam Letch

Mike I can't see anywhere 720 25p support, I know you can drop 720 50p onto a 25p timeline, but is there a reason for this?

Or maybe simply I can't find it, the convergent site doesn't have it listed in the specs

thanks

Adam

Hi Adam-
Currently, FCP only supports 720p50 and 720p60 with the 50Mbps 4:2:2 CODEC, so we have limited are support accordingly. I think our CODEC will support the 720p25, but we really need the corresponding NLE support.

That said, we may see expanded support in the future. Also I don't know about the support of 720p25 (at 50 Mbps) from other NLE programs at this point.

Wouldn't 720p50 be preferred over 720p25 in most applications? Or do you plan to go to film?

[John Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Mike Schell

Hi Adam-
Currently, FCP only supports 720p50 and 720p60 with the 50Mbps 4:2:2 CODEC, so we have limited are support accordingly. I think our CODEC will support the 720p25, but we really need the corresponding NLE support.

That said, we may see expanded support in the future. Also I don't know about the support of 720p25 (at 50 Mbps) from other NLE programs at this point.

Wouldn't 720p50 be preferred over 720p25 in most applications? Or do you plan to go to film?

I would like to throw in a vote for 720P25. If you want a more film like cadence, you can get better quality per frame at the same data rate.

Also DnxHD (Avid) supports this (and I would guess Prores as well but don't have FCP) so although the footage would have to be transcoded it still seems like a good acquisition format...

keep up the good work Mike.

[Adam Letch]

Is the main format I shoot in, the cadence is very film like even if it's not a film out, everybody who sees my stuff thinks it's very 'film' like. And even though by no means do I knock the 'video' look, but people love the whole my video looks like a movie thing.
So yes a definite can we have it please.

Thanks

Adam

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Same opinion from here, Mike.

The EX1's 720/25p is a great format; it'd be a pity having to drop it with nanoFlash...

[Thomas Smet]

Originally Posted by Mike Schell

Hi Adam-
Currently, FCP only supports 720p50 and 720p60 with the 50Mbps 4:2:2 CODEC, so we have limited are support accordingly. I think our CODEC will support the 720p25, but we really need the corresponding NLE support.

That said, we may see expanded support in the future. Also I don't know about the support of 720p25 (at 50 Mbps) from other NLE programs at this point.

Wouldn't 720p50 be preferred over 720p25 in most applications? Or do you plan to go to film?

Is FCP the only NLE you are supporting now? Hey FCP doesn't support 160 mbits either but that is still in the XDR. I know a lot and I mean a lot of people that shoot 720p 25p and 720p 50p that turn it into 25p slow motion. I thought the whole point to the XDR was to make it universal for everybody.

[Mike Schell]

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Is FCP the only NLE you are supporting now? Hey FCP doesn't support 160 mbits either but that is still in the XDR. I know a lot and I mean a lot of people that shoot 720p 25p and 720p 50p that turn it into 25p slow motion. I thought the whole point to the XDR was to make it universal for everybody.

Hi Everyone-
OK, I get the message, we'll put in all the formats regardless of the NLE support. It is actually quite simple to add all the formats, but we'll likely have to pony up for an Iconix camera since it's about the only device that can generate all the various flavors for HD-SDI.