Question for Cineform guys at DVinfo.net

Matthew Pugerude · June 6th, 2007, 11:51 AM

This is a sad day in my life. Well not really life treating. I have spent many years editing on a pc and now I am finally getting some recognition for my work, but I have lost many jobs lately due to the fact that my edit system was not considers professional due to the fact that I was not on an Apple using FCP. Hog wash!!! I tell you Hog wash!!! NLE’s are tools it is how you use them is what really counts. I am just having a hard time fighting the Apple FCP marketing machine in my market. I am posting here because I think a lot of people may be in the same situation. With that little rant over with I will get to my question for the cineform guys.

With Switching to a Mac and FCP I would like to know what Cineform plans on doing about Hardware capture. The Xeana card is windows only so would you just add support for the Kona card or go another direction. I also will still have the Adobe package on the Mac as well so I hope that the codec does not take to long to get over to the Adobe package on a Mac. I realize that this might be a bit premature due to the fact that the Mac OS codec is still in beta. I am just trying to really figure out if this a good idea. I am doing most of my work with the XDCAM HD 350 lately and FCP has support for it. This is also fueling the fire to make the switch.
Matthew Pugerude

Marty Baggen · June 6th, 2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Pugerude

This is a sad day in my life. Well not really life treating. I have spent many years editing on a pc and now I am finally getting some recognition for my work, but I have lost many jobs lately due to the fact that my edit system was not considers professional due to the fact that I was not on an Apple using FCP.

What sort of clients are you dealing with that are even concerned about your platform and software?

Chris Barcellos · June 6th, 2007, 05:00 PM

Matt:

Is a drag, I agree. Worse, I can't tell if FCP is really better, or if it is just a marketing gimic. I'd have to buy and apple system to try it. Those that use Apples claim it is more creative. But how creative can you be with a closed system that doesn't allow you to upgrade with outside vendor products..... I guess the response is, if we don't have it, you don't need it...

All that aside, I have had a little experience in that I've seen the FCP GUI and it frankly doesn't look that much different from my Premiere 2.0.... But looks can be deceiving.

Meanwhile, I have been using Vegas more and more ( I cut my teeth on Premiere products) , and I am beginning to get a good feel for it..... And it sure is nice to have options for PPro, Vegas, Avid, and on and on and on...

David Taylor · June 6th, 2007, 07:30 PM

Thanks for asking. I'll take the opportunity to give you a general update.

We will continue to add features to our Mac product(s) through the year. Obviously we've spent tens of man-years on Windows and many fewer on Mac at this point, so it'll take us a while before we have as much support on Mac.

Our Mac strategy has been to first get the codec working well, and from a visual fidelity standpoint it's in good shape. Bidirectional file conversion from PC (AVI) <--> Mac (MOV) is also in pretty good shape.

What we have in front of us for Mac priorities are: 1) Performance optimizations (they're different on Mac and Win), 2) active metadata support (WB, color matrix, 3D LUTs) for CineForm RAW, 3) CS3 (Mac) compatibility, 4) conversion utilities including inverse telecine, spatial resampling, etc, and 5) hardware capture. Probably the most important of these is item 1 - we're still quite a bit slower on Mac right now, but initial threading optimizations will happen pretty soon and offer substantial performance improvement.

(BTW, we have a few new things up our sleeves that you don't know about yet....)

As we finish these items we will roll them out on-going. You guys are already used to us rolling stuff out regularly on Windows - we'll do the same thing on the Mac.

The general workaround, if we don't have a specific feature ready at the time you need it (like HW capture) is that if you can use a PC somewhere in your workflow you can generally solve the problem. For instance, in the mean time you can capture using a Windows machine (or Bootcamp) into CineForm MOV files and they're immediately playable in FCP.

Yes, the "brethren" have done an amazing job evangelizing FCP. Interestingly enough, many people who are fluent speaking both FCP and PPro have said they prefer PPro because of its efficient integration with associated apps. If that strength holds together for Adobe on the Mac, then it'll provide some much needed competition for FCP. At worst it'll make FCP better.

From CineForm's standpoint, we're enthused to get onto the Mac. At the end of thd day we want to help enable workflow efficiency regardless of the post-production software preference - whether on Windows or Mac. This trend will continue - we're in discussions with lots of different SW post companies about how we can add value to their products.

Jim Long · June 7th, 2007, 08:16 AM

I am familiar with the above gentleman's complaint. Possibly, some of the seasoned pros are just superstitious or uninformed. I remember working on a shoot in the Middle East as a producer a few years ago with an Emmy nominated DP. When I told him that I was planning to shoot my own production in High Def, he responded, "High Def, that old dinosaur!"

I stopped using Avid when I discovered two things: Premiere Pro and Cineform. I have not regretted the choice.

Possibly it was the fact that I was trained on PC's and never found a comfort zone with the Mac OS of the Avid. And the Cineform app has made it possible for me saves thousands in post. I recently completed a 55 minute project that I'd shot mostly with the Sony CineAlta.

(WARNING - SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION AHEAD), I was invited to show my just-completed doc at the 2nd Annual Monaco Charity Film Fest. The event screened all the films on dvd using video projection. Two Hollywood shooters had been brought in to cover the thing for a Behind the Scenes film (they informed me they'd just done something for GRINDHOUSE). After watching my doc, they told me they couldn't believe how great it looked --even on the dvd. They were surprised to learn that I went from injest, rough cut and on-lined the whole thing in Premiere 1.5, using Cineform Prospect. The consensus of everyone who'd seen my doc (TREASURES OF THE COPPER SCROLL) was that it was a handsomely mounted production. Like I said, I have not regretted the move to Premiere and especially Cineform Prospect HD.

Many, Many thanks to the 2 Davids.

David Taylor · June 7th, 2007, 08:21 AM

Wow, Jim - awesome post.

Obviously on boards people usually post when they have problems, and of course we're here to help. But yours is a great success story, and we enjoy hearing those also. Thanks for taking the time to post.

Thomas Smet · June 7th, 2007, 08:55 AM

I once read that somebody tried using their Kona card in their bootcamp Apple system and installed the Xena drivers under Windows XP and the card actually worked. Actually it may have been the other way around, I can't remember for sure.

But it seems as though the hardware itself may be pretty much the same. Of course this is not a supported workflow for the card and you would do this at your own risk but maybe this little bit of info will help out Cineform to add support. Of course it all comes down to the drivers and the SDK and Directshow is a lot different then whatever is used on the Apple side.

Matthew Pugerude · June 7th, 2007, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Baggen

What sort of clients are you dealing with that are even concerned about your platform and software?

Marty,
The clients are independent TV producers that currently have 3 shows on air. Everyone in the past that they have worked with has either been on FCP or Smoke.

I guess it is not the fact that I use Adobe products. It really feels more like that I am using a PC that scares people off.

My responds to that is a two pronged approach
1. I build my own PC's that I have never had any really significant problems with in the two years that I have had the current machine. I have had one problem that is my Video card went out. My PC solution was to go down to the local Computer store and buy a new card I was back to work in 30 minutes. Who's not going to love that Idea!!!

2. Computers are computers their is going to be problems with them no matter what platform your on.

Dude did not buy it. I later found out that he was having a problem with his windows laptop.

Jim,
I am so glad that you have had a good experience with the Adobe. Mine has been equally as good. That is why I am so sad that I might have to do this switch. I am sure I will continue to use Adobe in my workflow. Your post has given me great pause in making my descision. It is just so hard to fight the FCP beast. Maybe I need to be a better salesman I don't know what it is but what I do know is with Prospect and Premiere the job could get done and done well. It is just a hard sell in my market.

Marty Baggen · June 7th, 2007, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Pugerude

Marty,
The clients are independent TV producers that currently have 3 shows on air. Everyone in the past that they have worked with has either been on FCP or Smoke.

I guess it is not the fact that I use Adobe products. It really feels more like that I am using a PC that scares people off.

How do you integrate with the producers? Is there an interchange of ongoing work? If not, just tell them you bought a Mac and keep delivering your stuff from your PC as usual.

June 6th, 2007, 11:51 AM	#1
Matthew Pugerude Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Redmond, Oregon Posts: 173	Question for Cineform guys This is a sad day in my life. Well not really life treating. I have spent many years editing on a pc and now I am finally getting some recognition for my work, but I have lost many jobs lately due to the fact that my edit system was not considers professional due to the fact that I was not on an Apple using FCP. Hog wash!!! I tell you Hog wash!!! NLE’s are tools it is how you use them is what really counts. I am just having a hard time fighting the Apple FCP marketing machine in my market. I am posting here because I think a lot of people may be in the same situation. With that little rant over with I will get to my question for the cineform guys. With Switching to a Mac and FCP I would like to know what Cineform plans on doing about Hardware capture. The Xeana card is windows only so would you just add support for the Kona card or go another direction. I also will still have the Adobe package on the Mac as well so I hope that the codec does not take to long to get over to the Adobe package on a Mac. I realize that this might be a bit premature due to the fact that the Mac OS codec is still in beta. I am just trying to really figure out if this a good idea. I am doing most of my work with the XDCAM HD 350 lately and FCP has support for it. This is also fueling the fire to make the switch. Matthew Pugerude

June 6th, 2007, 05:00 PM	#3
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Matt: Is a drag, I agree. Worse, I can't tell if FCP is really better, or if it is just a marketing gimic. I'd have to buy and apple system to try it. Those that use Apples claim it is more creative. But how creative can you be with a closed system that doesn't allow you to upgrade with outside vendor products..... I guess the response is, if we don't have it, you don't need it... All that aside, I have had a little experience in that I've seen the FCP GUI and it frankly doesn't look that much different from my Premiere 2.0.... But looks can be deceiving. Meanwhile, I have been using Vegas more and more ( I cut my teeth on Premiere products) , and I am beginning to get a good feel for it..... And it sure is nice to have options for PPro, Vegas, Avid, and on and on and on... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

June 7th, 2007, 08:16 AM	#5
Jim Long Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Springdale, Arkansas Posts: 55	Love That Cineform I am familiar with the above gentleman's complaint. Possibly, some of the seasoned pros are just superstitious or uninformed. I remember working on a shoot in the Middle East as a producer a few years ago with an Emmy nominated DP. When I told him that I was planning to shoot my own production in High Def, he responded, "High Def, that old dinosaur!" I stopped using Avid when I discovered two things: Premiere Pro and Cineform. I have not regretted the choice. Possibly it was the fact that I was trained on PC's and never found a comfort zone with the Mac OS of the Avid. And the Cineform app has made it possible for me saves thousands in post. I recently completed a 55 minute project that I'd shot mostly with the Sony CineAlta. (WARNING - SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION AHEAD), I was invited to show my just-completed doc at the 2nd Annual Monaco Charity Film Fest. The event screened all the films on dvd using video projection. Two Hollywood shooters had been brought in to cover the thing for a Behind the Scenes film (they informed me they'd just done something for GRINDHOUSE). After watching my doc, they told me they couldn't believe how great it looked --even on the dvd. They were surprised to learn that I went from injest, rough cut and on-lined the whole thing in Premiere 1.5, using Cineform Prospect. The consensus of everyone who'd seen my doc (TREASURES OF THE COPPER SCROLL) was that it was a handsomely mounted production. Like I said, I have not regretted the move to Premiere and especially Cineform Prospect HD. Many, Many thanks to the 2 Davids.

June 6th, 2007, 07:30 PM	#4
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	Thanks for asking. I'll take the opportunity to give you a general update. We will continue to add features to our Mac product(s) through the year. Obviously we've spent tens of man-years on Windows and many fewer on Mac at this point, so it'll take us a while before we have as much support on Mac. Our Mac strategy has been to first get the codec working well, and from a visual fidelity standpoint it's in good shape. Bidirectional file conversion from PC (AVI) <--> Mac (MOV) is also in pretty good shape. What we have in front of us for Mac priorities are: 1) Performance optimizations (they're different on Mac and Win), 2) active metadata support (WB, color matrix, 3D LUTs) for CineForm RAW, 3) CS3 (Mac) compatibility, 4) conversion utilities including inverse telecine, spatial resampling, etc, and 5) hardware capture. Probably the most important of these is item 1 - we're still quite a bit slower on Mac right now, but initial threading optimizations will happen pretty soon and offer substantial performance improvement. (BTW, we have a few new things up our sleeves that you don't know about yet....) As we finish these items we will roll them out on-going. You guys are already used to us rolling stuff out regularly on Windows - we'll do the same thing on the Mac. The general workaround, if we don't have a specific feature ready at the time you need it (like HW capture) is that if you can use a PC somewhere in your workflow you can generally solve the problem. For instance, in the mean time you can capture using a Windows machine (or Bootcamp) into CineForm MOV files and they're immediately playable in FCP. Yes, the "brethren" have done an amazing job evangelizing FCP. Interestingly enough, many people who are fluent speaking both FCP and PPro have said they prefer PPro because of its efficient integration with associated apps. If that strength holds together for Adobe on the Mac, then it'll provide some much needed competition for FCP. At worst it'll make FCP better. From CineForm's standpoint, we're enthused to get onto the Mac. At the end of thd day we want to help enable workflow efficiency regardless of the post-production software preference - whether on Windows or Mac. This trend will continue - we're in discussions with lots of different SW post companies about how we can add value to their products.

June 7th, 2007, 08:21 AM	#6
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	Wow, Jim - awesome post. Obviously on boards people usually post when they have problems, and of course we're here to help. But yours is a great success story, and we enjoy hearing those also. Thanks for taking the time to post.

June 7th, 2007, 08:55 AM	#7
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	I once read that somebody tried using their Kona card in their bootcamp Apple system and installed the Xena drivers under Windows XP and the card actually worked. Actually it may have been the other way around, I can't remember for sure. But it seems as though the hardware itself may be pretty much the same. Of course this is not a supported workflow for the card and you would do this at your own risk but maybe this little bit of info will help out Cineform to add support. Of course it all comes down to the drivers and the SDK and Directshow is a lot different then whatever is used on the Apple side.