Neo HDV Questions for Canon Cameras at DVinfo.net

Blake Calhoun · May 29th, 2007, 08:27 PM

Downloaded the demo for Neo HDV today and I have a few questions before I buy it or don't buy it...

1. Does it REALLY remove pulldown on capture? I have tried with my HV20 and it didn't seem to work. It "says" the files are 23.98, but I see tons of ghost frames and what appears to be pulldown (in QT player and in my Avid timeline once imported into a 1080p23.98 project). I selected Remove Pulldown and Deinterlace 1080i, but it definitely doesn't look progressive. I chose "Auto" for frames, maybe I should choose "Progressive"?

2. Will HDLink capture 24F HDV from my Canon XH-A1 camera over Firewire? Haven't tested that yet.

3. Lastly, I selected .MOV as my wrapper and when capturing it made the first file a .MOV, but the subsequent files (since I selected "Split file on scene change") were all .AVI files, is this a bug?

Thank you for the help. I use Avid Xpress Pro and I'm trying to find a solid workflow for capturing HDV and then removing 3:2 pulldown from these Canon cameras (since Avid doesn't play well with others).

David Newman · May 29th, 2007, 08:47 PM

1. Yes, and this has been reconfirmed many times. Look beyond the first 10 frames and the remainder will be 24p. However, DO NOT SELECT DEINTERLACE -- if you have progressive you will nearly half your vertical resolution.

2. Yes, that works fine.

3. That might be a bug. We have only just added MOV support, so they can be issue like this one.

Blake Calhoun · May 29th, 2007, 09:04 PM

Thanks David. I'll try again tomorrow and NOT select Deinterlace (I read in the User's Manual to do this I thought?). The footage just simply did not look like the pulldown was removed.

However, I did try another clip that was already on my system as an .M2T file (captured directly into Avid from the HV20 shot at 24p) and it seemed to work fine. The first ten frames did have pulldown, but after that it was good. So, I was surprised that the capture didn't work for me.

The .MOV files read into my Avid quicker than the .AVI files, so that's why I chose that wrapper. I'm honestly just glad the Cineform codec is being read by my Avid... that is great news! The codec looks really good.

One other thought... does HDLink capture the timecode with the clip? I couldn't read it in QT player, Windows Media Player, or Avid...

I'll test again, and post my results.

Thanks,
Blake

David Newman · May 29th, 2007, 09:23 PM

The manual describes generating 24p from a 60i source, this is not the same as extracting something that was originally 24p. Timecode is not recorded within HDLink, although it is within our Premiere tools, so it is on the list to add to HDLink.

Blake Calhoun · May 30th, 2007, 08:24 AM

Thanks for clarifying that. I have worked a lot with 24p footage in the past (not HDV), but never had to remove pulldown like this. Always did it during caputure or within the NLE, but... as mentioned, since Avid isn't supporting these flavors of HDV 24p/f I'm trying to find a workaround (for now).

I did another test this morning and did NOT select Deinterlace and it did work. However, I did encounter two problems:

1. I chose to have it keep the .M2T files and create the Cineform files. HDLink locked up before the capture was finished. My computer is an HP xw8200 dual 3.4 Xeon with 4 Gigs of RAM, and I'm running a Nvidia Quadro FX3400 video card. Seems that should suffice?

2. The .MOV wrapper changes again after the first clip to .AVI. This is obviously a bug.

Question too... if I bought Vegas and Neo HDV, would they work together well? In otherwords, Vegas has the Cineform codec within it, so could I actually capture with Vegas (keeping timecode) and not Neo HDV? Or would I still need to use Neo first to remove pulldown?

I'd likely use this as an "offline" setup, and then export a QT into Avid for my finishing (if this would work).

Thanks for your help!

David Newman · May 30th, 2007, 08:42 AM

Blake,

1. You not ever be seeing lockups, even on low end PCs, so some it quite correct on your PC. If you captre M2T only then convert do you see the same failure. If you don't, there could be a FireWire bus issue. The old Xeons -- guessing as the new ones don't have a 3.4Ghz version -- are our least favourite CPU due to the very slow memory system. The system should be OK but it will perform like a fast P4 for wavelet encoding. Note: the new Xeons are awesome.

2. I will pass that on.

3. Vegas doesn't capture to CineForm, but they do have a license to CineForm files. NEO and Vegas do work well together, however you are going to need NEO.

Blake Calhoun · May 30th, 2007, 08:57 AM

My computer is about a year and a half old. So I guess in computer years that's old. :) However, I have no issues whatsoever with anything locking up running AE, Avid Xpress Pro w/Mojo, Photoshop, etc., you name it. VERY solid. Maybe it was just a hiccup?

When I captured only into the Cineform codec (yesterday) everything was fine. I haven't tried only doing M2T files. I don't really want to have to take the extra step of removing pulldown (rather do it during capture - or will it do it? The M2T files that came in with the Cineform still had pulldown).

I'm curious... how can these solutions NOT record the timecode? How is that professional? Does NeoHD record TC?

David Newman · May 30th, 2007, 09:08 AM

Blake,

You would be surprise we get very few requests for timecode with HDlink, maybe because we support timecode in all our other products most pros are using those. Also AVI doesn't have a standard way to add TC, while MOV does, we have only had MOV support for 3 weeks.

Blake Calhoun · May 30th, 2007, 10:05 AM

I know I'm dealing with some "prosumer" stuff here on the camera side especially, but I'm surprised timecode is not more important.

And I didn't realize you've only been working with QT that short of time. I'm glad you are.

Can you suggest a workflow using your codec that allows me to capture with timecode (and remove pulldown)? I'm not talking a new system either. :)

Thanks again for your help.

David Newman · May 30th, 2007, 10:23 AM

Aspect or Prospect HD with Premiere Pro extracts timecode from M2T streams and adds that to the AVI header, but not to the MOV yet. For HDSDI and 422 deck-controlled sources you also get timecode. If you are using pro equipment you get timecode -- that's one reason we don't get many enquires. HDV sources for most projects, the source timecode becomes irrelavant as the CineForm injest files becomes the new master for IT centric workflow -- you don't go back to tape, you don't ever need to off-line or conform -- this is the main reason users aren't requesting tape timecode.

Blake Calhoun · May 30th, 2007, 10:37 AM

What if you have to revise a show later and need to rebuild? I guess they relink the media and save it on drives? But what if a drive crashes? The HDV tape is like my "archive", so I'd like to be able to go back to that if need be, and not rebuild it by hand.

As far as pro-equipment... I have acess to a Sony HDV deck, but it will not playback the Canon 24F footage? I guess it will play the HV20 footage? Haven't tried that. But, I am using firewire, not HD-SDI.

Last question, and I REALLY do appreciate your insight - will using a BMD Intensity card and the HDMI output of the HV20 (or Sony deck) read timecode in Vegas (or any of the Neo versions)?

Thanks!
Blake

David Newman · May 30th, 2007, 11:20 AM

We believe hard drives to now be cheaper and more reliable than tape (particular HDV) archive. DV tape is $0.33 per Gig, and hard drives are now at $0.20 per Gig and falling fast. This is not including head wear for the tape system. A hard drive will not crash sitting on the shelf, just spin it up once a year to prevent striction issues.

There is no timecode over HDMI.

Blake Calhoun · May 30th, 2007, 12:16 PM

Thanks again for your help. I'll hopefully find the best workaround.

Kris Bird · May 31st, 2007, 04:09 AM

timecode would be good, I only just noticed yesterday that it doesn't import the timecode.

I use a custom vegas script to slip timeline events to their timecoded positions, which really helps with syncing 2+ cam events (recorded with free running timecode).

so yeah, tc would be appreciated .. that takes my personal requests for hdlink to three ;)

1. 50i -> 50p conversion (interpolated frames)
2. A "rewind then start capturing" button.
3. Retain timecode

Not deal breakers, but would make me an even happier customer.. hopefully you'll have time in your dev schedules at some point, they're pretty natural improvements for the program.

May 29th, 2007, 08:27 PM	#1
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	Neo HDV Questions for Canon Cameras Downloaded the demo for Neo HDV today and I have a few questions before I buy it or don't buy it... 1. Does it REALLY remove pulldown on capture? I have tried with my HV20 and it didn't seem to work. It "says" the files are 23.98, but I see tons of ghost frames and what appears to be pulldown (in QT player and in my Avid timeline once imported into a 1080p23.98 project). I selected Remove Pulldown and Deinterlace 1080i, but it definitely doesn't look progressive. I chose "Auto" for frames, maybe I should choose "Progressive"? 2. Will HDLink capture 24F HDV from my Canon XH-A1 camera over Firewire? Haven't tested that yet. 3. Lastly, I selected .MOV as my wrapper and when capturing it made the first file a .MOV, but the subsequent files (since I selected "Split file on scene change") were all .AVI files, is this a bug? Thank you for the help. I use Avid Xpress Pro and I'm trying to find a solid workflow for capturing HDV and then removing 3:2 pulldown from these Canon cameras (since Avid doesn't play well with others). __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 29th, 2007, 08:47 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	1. Yes, and this has been reconfirmed many times. Look beyond the first 10 frames and the remainder will be 24p. However, DO NOT SELECT DEINTERLACE -- if you have progressive you will nearly half your vertical resolution. 2. Yes, that works fine. 3. That might be a bug. We have only just added MOV support, so they can be issue like this one. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 29th, 2007, 09:04 PM	#3
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	Thanks David. I'll try again tomorrow and NOT select Deinterlace (I read in the User's Manual to do this I thought?). The footage just simply did not look like the pulldown was removed. However, I did try another clip that was already on my system as an .M2T file (captured directly into Avid from the HV20 shot at 24p) and it seemed to work fine. The first ten frames did have pulldown, but after that it was good. So, I was surprised that the capture didn't work for me. The .MOV files read into my Avid quicker than the .AVI files, so that's why I chose that wrapper. I'm honestly just glad the Cineform codec is being read by my Avid... that is great news! The codec looks really good. One other thought... does HDLink capture the timecode with the clip? I couldn't read it in QT player, Windows Media Player, or Avid... I'll test again, and post my results. Thanks, Blake __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 29th, 2007, 09:23 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	The manual describes generating 24p from a 60i source, this is not the same as extracting something that was originally 24p. Timecode is not recorded within HDLink, although it is within our Premiere tools, so it is on the list to add to HDLink. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 30th, 2007, 08:24 AM	#5
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	Thanks for clarifying that. I have worked a lot with 24p footage in the past (not HDV), but never had to remove pulldown like this. Always did it during caputure or within the NLE, but... as mentioned, since Avid isn't supporting these flavors of HDV 24p/f I'm trying to find a workaround (for now). I did another test this morning and did NOT select Deinterlace and it did work. However, I did encounter two problems: 1. I chose to have it keep the .M2T files and create the Cineform files. HDLink locked up before the capture was finished. My computer is an HP xw8200 dual 3.4 Xeon with 4 Gigs of RAM, and I'm running a Nvidia Quadro FX3400 video card. Seems that should suffice? 2. The .MOV wrapper changes again after the first clip to .AVI. This is obviously a bug. Question too... if I bought Vegas and Neo HDV, would they work together well? In otherwords, Vegas has the Cineform codec within it, so could I actually capture with Vegas (keeping timecode) and not Neo HDV? Or would I still need to use Neo first to remove pulldown? I'd likely use this as an "offline" setup, and then export a QT into Avid for my finishing (if this would work). Thanks for your help! __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 30th, 2007, 08:42 AM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Blake, 1. You not ever be seeing lockups, even on low end PCs, so some it quite correct on your PC. If you captre M2T only then convert do you see the same failure. If you don't, there could be a FireWire bus issue. The old Xeons -- guessing as the new ones don't have a 3.4Ghz version -- are our least favourite CPU due to the very slow memory system. The system should be OK but it will perform like a fast P4 for wavelet encoding. Note: the new Xeons are awesome. 2. I will pass that on. 3. Vegas doesn't capture to CineForm, but they do have a license to CineForm files. NEO and Vegas do work well together, however you are going to need NEO. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 30th, 2007, 08:57 AM	#7
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	My computer is about a year and a half old. So I guess in computer years that's old. :) However, I have no issues whatsoever with anything locking up running AE, Avid Xpress Pro w/Mojo, Photoshop, etc., you name it. VERY solid. Maybe it was just a hiccup? When I captured only into the Cineform codec (yesterday) everything was fine. I haven't tried only doing M2T files. I don't really want to have to take the extra step of removing pulldown (rather do it during capture - or will it do it? The M2T files that came in with the Cineform still had pulldown). I'm curious... how can these solutions NOT record the timecode? How is that professional? Does NeoHD record TC? __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 30th, 2007, 09:08 AM	#8
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Blake, You would be surprise we get very few requests for timecode with HDlink, maybe because we support timecode in all our other products most pros are using those. Also AVI doesn't have a standard way to add TC, while MOV does, we have only had MOV support for 3 weeks. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 30th, 2007, 10:05 AM	#9
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	I know I'm dealing with some "prosumer" stuff here on the camera side especially, but I'm surprised timecode is not more important. And I didn't realize you've only been working with QT that short of time. I'm glad you are. Can you suggest a workflow using your codec that allows me to capture with timecode (and remove pulldown)? I'm not talking a new system either. :) Thanks again for your help. __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 30th, 2007, 10:23 AM	#10
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Aspect or Prospect HD with Premiere Pro extracts timecode from M2T streams and adds that to the AVI header, but not to the MOV yet. For HDSDI and 422 deck-controlled sources you also get timecode. If you are using pro equipment you get timecode -- that's one reason we don't get many enquires. HDV sources for most projects, the source timecode becomes irrelavant as the CineForm injest files becomes the new master for IT centric workflow -- you don't go back to tape, you don't ever need to off-line or conform -- this is the main reason users aren't requesting tape timecode. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 30th, 2007, 10:37 AM	#11
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	What if you have to revise a show later and need to rebuild? I guess they relink the media and save it on drives? But what if a drive crashes? The HDV tape is like my "archive", so I'd like to be able to go back to that if need be, and not rebuild it by hand. As far as pro-equipment... I have acess to a Sony HDV deck, but it will not playback the Canon 24F footage? I guess it will play the HV20 footage? Haven't tried that. But, I am using firewire, not HD-SDI. Last question, and I REALLY do appreciate your insight - will using a BMD Intensity card and the HDMI output of the HV20 (or Sony deck) read timecode in Vegas (or any of the Neo versions)? Thanks! Blake __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 30th, 2007, 11:20 AM	#12
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	We believe hard drives to now be cheaper and more reliable than tape (particular HDV) archive. DV tape is $0.33 per Gig, and hard drives are now at $0.20 per Gig and falling fast. This is not including head wear for the tape system. A hard drive will not crash sitting on the shelf, just spin it up once a year to prevent striction issues. There is no timecode over HDMI. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 30th, 2007, 12:16 PM	#13
Blake Calhoun Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 157	Thanks again for your help. I'll hopefully find the best workaround. __________________ Mainly dabble in features and WebTV: www.pinktheseries.com \| www.facebook.com/continuumtv \| www.killingdown.com

May 31st, 2007, 04:09 AM	#14
Kris Bird Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: UK Posts: 173	timecode would be good, I only just noticed yesterday that it doesn't import the timecode. I use a custom vegas script to slip timeline events to their timecoded positions, which really helps with syncing 2+ cam events (recorded with free running timecode). so yeah, tc would be appreciated .. that takes my personal requests for hdlink to three ;) 1. 50i -> 50p conversion (interpolated frames) 2. A "rewind then start capturing" button. 3. Retain timecode Not deal breakers, but would make me an even happier customer.. hopefully you'll have time in your dev schedules at some point, they're pretty natural improvements for the program.