Blackmagic 8-bit MJPEG vs CineForm HD

[Richard Leadbetter]

Originally Posted by Anmol Mishra

On the comparison page, the compression listed for AMV3 and the other variant seemed to be less than that listed for huffyuv. In your experience, is the compression rate less or more than huffy ?

There are many different variants of Huffyuv - predict left, gradient, median etc - generally speaking you should get better efficiency as it uses prediction techniques based on more than one frame, whereas with Huffyuv every frame is a key frame.

However, I have noticed that the UT Codec Suite - which is to all intents and purposes a highly optimised, multi-core variant of Huffyuv - can sometimes get better efficiencies (but mostly it is a lot worse). It seems to me that you should unearth some of your archive clips and run them through all the compressors to see what's what.

Huffyuv really has had its day now. If you want a true multi-core version, UT Codec Suite is what you want. AMV is faster and better though with tons more options.

Originally Posted by Steven Anderson

Richard, Would it be possible to contact him again to possibly get 64-bit support since you have worked with him in the past? I recently just upgraded to 64-bit and having problems with the codec in Vegas Pro 64-bit. I know it will work in 32-bit but it'd be nice in 64-bit. :) Thanks in advance if you can.

Maybe you can tell me more about the problems before I contact the author. He doesn't speak English so I need to be quite precise if Google translations are to be trusted!

[Steven Anderson]

Originally Posted by Richard Leadbetter

Maybe you can tell me more about the problems before I contact the author. He doesn't speak English so I need to be quite precise if Google translations are to be trusted!

Under my prior system setup I had no problem working with AMV3. Since I just upgraded from Windows XP 32bit to 7 64bit among all the new hardware, Core i7 860 and so forth.

I can still use the codec in some applications as they are still 32bit apps, mainly capturing except I do have Intensity Pro issues with audio but that's something I hope to work out with Blackmagic, if can.

But if I try to load previous or new captures in Vegas 64bit the codec is unreadable, same goes with VLC because they are 64bit. I was just wondering if it were at all possible for him to add that little 64bit that is needed? If it is little and not too much a pain to be done. For such a great codec at little cost, I would even pay an upgrade fee if it would take him that much more work to make it compatible.

[Richard Leadbetter]

I'll write an email.

AMV3 is 4:2:0 but I'm sure you know that... for 4:2:2, RGB and 4:4:4 you need to be using AMV2 MT...

[Steven Anderson]

Originally Posted by Richard Leadbetter

I'll write an email.

AMV3 is 4:2:0 but I'm sure you know that... for 4:2:2, RGB and 4:4:4 you need to be using AMV2 MT...

Yea, I know that but I see no difference, drop of frames or anything while capturing with the AMV3 codec versus AMV2. The only difference I get is barely a much bigger file than AMV2 would produce (around 25MB bigger)

I have read others have no problems nor see a difference while capturing in this as well using the Intensity Pro as to why I decided to use it and enjoyed it. I am already saving so much space on my RAID with this lovely loseless codec then before which was uncompressed.

I capture through my Xbox 360 so not sure if that would be why I am not seeing a problem versus say many other intended uses for the Intensity Pro and such. While I understand a lot, I do not understand everything so if there is more reason for my setup to be using AMV2 MT over AMV3, please do tell as I am interested to hear it in case I really am using a bad setup here and I just may of never noticed it.

Thank you though for writing an e-mail. Very much appreciated.

[Anmol Mishra]

Yes Huffy is quite old - thats true. I wonder if you could estimate a minimum system requirement for recording 1080P. I saw the benchmarks with a Celeron 420. I will use a flash SSD so the disk latency is not a bottleneck.
Thanks!

[Richard Leadbetter]

The developer said he will give 64-bit support a shot, but it's his first attempt so please be patient

Anmol: you will need to try it with your own material because it will vary. The shareware version is fully functional aside from the watermark. Just download, install, and convert some AVIs using VirtualDub and see what you get.

[Richard Leadbetter]

The AMV codec developer has written a new tool called ProxyCodec that allows you to run 32-bit compressors in a 64-bit environment:

http://amamaman.hp.infoseek.co.jp/en...proxycodec.htm
http://amamaman.hp.infoseek.co.jp/en...odec_100en.exe

Here's a new AMV that works in Windows 7...

http://amamaman.hp.infoseek.co.jp/en...amv300g_en.exe

[Anmol Mishra]

Originally Posted by Richard Leadbetter

I'll write an email.

AMV3 is 4:2:0 but I'm sure you know that... for 4:2:2, RGB and 4:4:4 you need to be using AMV2 MT...

Hi Richard! I am finally able to test AMV2 MT. Is there a list of settings I should try ?

I do not see HDYC as the input. Or UYVY.
The lossless compression options are R1, R2, Y1, Y2. But inputs are only YUY2 and RGB. Outputs are only RGB, and possible YUY2.

If I understand this, the codec will convert HDYC to YUY2 and then again to RGB. Does this make sense ?

[Anmol Mishra]

Hi Richard. I must have read this thread dozens of times. Just noticed something that I should have notice years ago.
You recorded in huffy and vd in 2007..Almost 3 years ago.. Did you use the mt version or the regular version from virtualdub.org ?

My impression was that huffy hdyc support only came in this fork of huffy..
http://members.optusnet.com.au/squid...ffyuv-HDYC.zip

I thought the regular huffy build did not support hdyc..
Also, I wonder if you saw a color shift problem with huffy. This gent recorded color bars and the green seemed to be shifted..

Capture Pics

I am going to record color bars tonight and post the footage so we can test for this shift..

Originally Posted by Richard Leadbetter

Hi there,

Much has been made of the free Blackmagic MJPEG codec bundled with the Intensity, so I thought I would give it a go.

I linked up our somewhat specialised video games HD capture hardware with the Blackmagic 8-bit MJPEG VFW codec today in order to compare it against CineForm. It may be an unfair test as our capture software can address the CineForm DirectShow encoder directly and I am unsure whether the BMD codec has a DirectShow version of its encoder, and if it does, how much of an improvement it is. Notes though:

1. The VFW codec wouldn't accept a YUV 4:2:2 input, I had to feed it 24-bit RGB (CineForm will accept both but flies with YUV 4:2:2)
2. A Pentium 4 3.0GHz CPU with HT really struggled to achieve 30fps capture at 720p without dropping frames. Fed YUV 4:2:2, CineForm has no problems on this CPU
3. The codec does appear to be multi-threaded so should do much much better on a strong Core 2 platform

Picture quality then: well, putting uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 next to CineForm, I have to use zoom in Photoshop on a specific still to spot any differences. And even then half the time I'm not sure if I am actually seeing any difference! In motion it definitely lives up to its 'visually perfect' billing.

Blackmagic MJPEG has typical JPEG artefacting, especially around lettering (the usual pixel fuzziness around lettering, for example). On fine detail it's really not that good either while CineForm is practically flawless.

Filesizes then, and here's a real surprise.

One minute of 'not that challenging' video games 720p/30 footage, captured at 24-bit RGB and compressed on the fly with the mathematically lossless Huffyuv codec was dubbed into various codecs by VirtualDub. Results are:

Huffyuv: 2.23GB (double that for completely uncompressed)
CineForm HD (Low Quality Setting/Progressive): 462MB
CineForm HD (Medium Quality Setting/Progressive): 590MB
CineForm HD (High Quality Setting/Progressive): 757MB
Blackmagic MJPEG (there are no quality settings): 513MB

I was under the impression that the bandwidth used by the MJPEG compressor was lower than CineForm, and it is on all but the lowest quality setting - but not by an appreciably useful margin. Certainly not considering the gulf in quality. I think this is a fair like-for-like test too as (and I might be wrong) the CFHD VFW codec as used by VirtualDub only operates in the 8-bit domain, just like the MJPEG one.

I should also point out that the 462MB 'low' quality CineForm HD file still looked considerably better than the MJPEG in lack of artifacting, retention of key detail etc. It's also worth mentioning that video games capture is characterised by an infinite depth of field, sharper edges - all the stuff that makes compression difficult and artifacting easier to spot.

So in every appreciable way (aside from cost), CineForm HD significantly (if not massively) out-performs the MJPEG codec based on my experience.

[Perrone Ford]

Cineform is a wavelet codec. There are many out there including Dirac (used by the BBC), RedCode, and the Morgan Multimedia Jpeg2000 implementation I currently use. It is 8-bit but is accessible by VfW and I can replicate Cineform's performance with it.

MJpeg should be deprecated honestly.

[Anmol Mishra]

Hi Perrone. The problem is that we have a choice of intermediate codecs but very few acquisition hd codecs..

There is MJPEG, uncompressed -120 MBps, huffyuv compressed lossless..
Huffy derivatives like AMV..
And thats it, without shelling out for a Matrox..
MJPEG is still better than HDV..So a mini-itx box, will cost about 300-400 cost with an intensity and a touchscreen monitor with batteries..At total of 500 and we can acquire better than hdv..

I want to see what the next step up is - there are some colorspace issues with huffyuv and possibly with amv.

For cineform I am essentially doubling my acquisition cost (did it already and have a NeoHD license). However, I cannot do this with multiple cameras, or a 3s stereo rig..

Hence I am looking for options..

Dirac and MJ2K do not allow for realtime capture

[Anmol Mishra]

We did a test posted at vimeo

Comparison of Blackmagic MJPEG and Huffyv colorspace on Vimeo

We played out a SMPTE color bar from a 5d Mark II. It was ingested with a BM Intensity card using Virtualdub. There were 2 files, a special Huffyuv build for HDYC and the default BM MJPEG. As you scroll through the video it can be seen that the colorspace changes when Huffyuv records. This is a confirmation of the problem first noticed at
etfinder.net/capturepics/

Will post AMV comparisons later..

[David Newman]

Anmol,

NeoHD allows for two activations, so we are not doubling your acquisition cost. While we aren't a free solution, we are one of the best for acquisition, striving for lower cost will be at the expense of quality. If you are looking to build an acquisition product, that you are going to sell on to others, you need consider OEM prices, just like many others who have select CineForm as their primarily acquisition format.

[Anmol Mishra]

Hi David. I sent an inquiry about the 2 activations on another forum. I did not get a reply.
The software does not allow a second activation on its own until the 1 is deactivated.

I am not looking to make a OEM product, but I am concerned about being tied down to an expensive proprietary technology.

It was also a surprise when NeoHD v3 was discontinued in terms of development.

I can actually afford a second license, but I really do not think its fair to buy another one.

I am aware that NeoHD is the best acquisition option at this time.

[Anmol Mishra]

Hi David. I opened a support ticket #611-8307416. Lets see how the request for a second activation goes..