Blackmagic 8-bit MJPEG vs CineForm HD

Anmol Mishra · August 30th, 2009, 05:41 PM

They have had updates but no selectable quality as far as I know. A poster on another forum used virtual dub to record with it, and apparently used huffyuv. If huffyuv can, then another JPEG codec can also be used..
I am waiting for a response from the poster..

Richard Leadbetter · August 31st, 2009, 05:03 AM

If either VirtualDub or the codec has been patched to "translate" the Intensity's pixel format identifier into standard YUY2, then yes, Huffyuv or just about any other codec will work. I'm fairly sure that CineForm will work any way.

Is there a particular usage you're looking for?

Anmol Mishra · August 31st, 2009, 06:01 PM

I wanted to play with 3D. I have a sync comparator to check signal drift, and 2 mini-ITX mounted PCs and a battery..
Cineform would be too expensive for the 2x licenses. Now that I think about Huffy does have an option to record YUV, so does Lagarith. And possibly Morgan MJPEG..

Lagarith gives about 2x compression at the minimum. So I can use 2x CF cards in RAID to record at the 60 mbps rate to get 2x uncompressed streams..

For Lagarith, the low power Atoms would work as well.

David Newman · August 31st, 2009, 06:23 PM

Nonesense about the too expensive part. :) CineForm is fast enough that 3D encoding (dual stream) can be encoded on one PC, no need for two licenses. Your data rate is significantly smaller, plus if is you ever get a budgetted project, CineForm has Neo 3D for an online stereo post workflow.

Anmol Mishra · August 31st, 2009, 06:46 PM

I am not aware of an application that allows for recording 2 HDMI streams at the same time. If you do know of one, do let me know..
Blackmagic can monitor 2 streams but can record only one..
As far as I am aware the HDLink cineform utility also can record only 1 HDMI stream at once..

I am talking of a realtime recording workflow not a post workflow..

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

Nonesense about the too expensive part. :) CineForm is fast enough that 3D encoding (dual stream) can be encoded on one PC, no need for two licenses. Your data rate is significantly smaller, plus if is you ever get a budgetted project, CineForm has Neo 3D for an online stereo post workflow.

David Newman · August 31st, 2009, 08:32 PM

We have a bunch of third parties doing it. The higher-end AJA and BM cards support multiple inputs (or multiple cards,) both support DirectShow, so you can build you own capture graph hooking to the CineForm DirectShow Encoder2. We have one third party capture four 1080p CineForm streams on one PC. So if you prepared to do some experimenting, it works.

Anmol Mishra · September 1st, 2009, 01:39 AM

Hi David,

Would you mind giving specifics ?
I know the higher end cards have multiple inputs. Multiple realtime 1080p recording ATM is not supported as per my knowledge..

Which third party encoder were you referring to ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

We have a bunch of third parties doing it. The higher-end AJA and BM cards support multiple inputs (or multiple cards,) both support DirectShow, so you can build you own capture graph hooking to the CineForm DirectShow Encoder2. We have one third party capture four 1080p CineForm streams on one PC. So if you prepared to do some experimenting, it works.

Richard Leadbetter · September 1st, 2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anmol Mishra

I wanted to play with 3D. I have a sync comparator to check signal drift, and 2 mini-ITX mounted PCs and a battery..
Cineform would be too expensive for the 2x licenses. Now that I think about Huffy does have an option to record YUV, so does Lagarith. And possibly Morgan MJPEG..

Lagarith gives about 2x compression at the minimum. So I can use 2x CF cards in RAID to record at the 60 mbps rate to get 2x uncompressed streams..

For Lagarith, the low power Atoms would work as well.

Lagarith is way too slow for your application intended application. My old QX6850 based system could get around 20fps average with it at 1080p. CPU load changes dramatically according to the complexity of the scene.

If you want to stick with your mITX systems, check out the various modes of the AMV codec. It is stupidly fast and $10 a license won't break the bank: This is English page

Unlike Lagarith, its threading actually works properly!

It's a great codec, if not in the same league as CineForm in lossy modes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anmol Mishra

Hi David,

Would you mind giving specifics ?
I know the higher end cards have multiple inputs. Multiple realtime 1080p recording ATM is not supported as per my knowledge..

Which third party encoder were you referring to ?

Well, the hardware I use and sell for video games HD capture can easily handle twin 1080i streams, but as it's DVI based, your HDMI streams would be losing their audio.

Anmol Mishra · September 1st, 2009, 05:37 PM

Thanks for the link.. I will try it out..
I had looked into capture cards earlier..There are dual DVI capture cards but as far as I know, their pricing is north of 1K.
But thats a good point, I will look into dual-DVI capture cards as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Leadbetter

If you want to stick with your mITX systems, check out the various modes of the AMV codec. It is stupidly fast and $10 a license won't break the bank: This is English page

Well, the hardware I use and sell for video games HD capture can easily handle twin 1080i streams, but as it's DVI based, your HDMI streams would be losing their audio.

Anmol Mishra · September 25th, 2009, 07:00 PM

Hi Richard. Huffyuv and Intensity have been used for capture using virtualdub. Huffyuv was patched to support HDYC.
See this thread..
Unofficial VirtualDub Support Forums -> Optimizing A High Data Rate, 720p Capture

I could not get any contact for Amaman - the AMV3 developer. Would you mind contacting him to see if he/she could add support for HDYC so it could be used instead of Huffyuv ?
And preferably 64-bit support as well..

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Leadbetter

If either VirtualDub or the codec has been patched to "translate" the Intensity's pixel format identifier into standard YUY2, then yes, Huffyuv or just about any other codec will work. I'm fairly sure that CineForm will work any way.

Is there a particular usage you're looking for?

Richard Leadbetter · September 26th, 2009, 03:00 AM

AMV already works with HDYC - in fact, I tested it for the developer since he does not own an Intensity.

Anmol Mishra · September 26th, 2009, 09:04 PM

Wow, so I can use virtualdub and AMV for capture from an Intensity card ? Any idea if this setup works for a 64-bit system and if there is any performance improvement ?
Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Leadbetter

AMV already works with HDYC - in fact, I tested it for the developer since he does not own an Intensity.

Richard Leadbetter · September 27th, 2009, 02:12 AM

There is no 64-bit version, but 32-bit VirtualDub and 32-bit AMV work just fine in x64.

Anmol Mishra · September 27th, 2009, 04:23 AM

On the comparison page, the compression listed for AMV3 and the other variant seemed to be less than that listed for huffyuv. In your experience, is the compression rate less or more than huffy ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Leadbetter

There is no 64-bit version, but 32-bit VirtualDub and 32-bit AMV work just fine in x64.

Steven Anderson · September 28th, 2009, 12:47 AM

Richard, Would it be possible to contact him again to possibly get 64-bit support since you have worked with him in the past? I recently just upgraded to 64-bit and having problems with the codec in Vegas Pro 64-bit. I know it will work in 32-bit but it'd be nice in 64-bit. :) Thanks in advance if you can.

August 31st, 2009, 05:03 AM	#17
Richard Leadbetter Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 323	If either VirtualDub or the codec has been patched to "translate" the Intensity's pixel format identifier into standard YUY2, then yes, Huffyuv or just about any other codec will work. I'm fairly sure that CineForm will work any way. Is there a particular usage you're looking for? __________________ Company Website: Digital Foundry Ltd Video Games HD Blog: Digital Foundry@Eurogamer

August 31st, 2009, 06:23 PM	#19
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Nonesense about the too expensive part. :) CineForm is fast enough that 3D encoding (dual stream) can be encoded on one PC, no need for two licenses. Your data rate is significantly smaller, plus if is you ever get a budgetted project, CineForm has Neo 3D for an online stereo post workflow. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 31st, 2009, 08:32 PM	#21
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	We have a bunch of third parties doing it. The higher-end AJA and BM cards support multiple inputs (or multiple cards,) both support DirectShow, so you can build you own capture graph hooking to the CineForm DirectShow Encoder2. We have one third party capture four 1080p CineForm streams on one PC. So if you prepared to do some experimenting, it works. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

September 26th, 2009, 03:00 AM	#26
Richard Leadbetter Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 323	AMV already works with HDYC - in fact, I tested it for the developer since he does not own an Intensity. __________________ Company Website: Digital Foundry Ltd Video Games HD Blog: Digital Foundry@Eurogamer

September 27th, 2009, 02:12 AM	#28
Richard Leadbetter Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 323	There is no 64-bit version, but 32-bit VirtualDub and 32-bit AMV work just fine in x64. __________________ Company Website: Digital Foundry Ltd Video Games HD Blog: Digital Foundry@Eurogamer

August 30th, 2009, 05:41 PM	#16
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	They have had updates but no selectable quality as far as I know. A poster on another forum used virtual dub to record with it, and apparently used huffyuv. If huffyuv can, then another JPEG codec can also be used.. I am waiting for a response from the poster..

August 31st, 2009, 06:01 PM	#18
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	I wanted to play with 3D. I have a sync comparator to check signal drift, and 2 mini-ITX mounted PCs and a battery.. Cineform would be too expensive for the 2x licenses. Now that I think about Huffy does have an option to record YUV, so does Lagarith. And possibly Morgan MJPEG.. Lagarith gives about 2x compression at the minimum. So I can use 2x CF cards in RAID to record at the 60 mbps rate to get 2x uncompressed streams.. For Lagarith, the low power Atoms would work as well.

September 28th, 2009, 12:47 AM	#30
Steven Anderson Tourist Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL Posts: 3	Richard, Would it be possible to contact him again to possibly get 64-bit support since you have worked with him in the past? I recently just upgraded to 64-bit and having problems with the codec in Vegas Pro 64-bit. I know it will work in 32-bit but it'd be nice in 64-bit. :) Thanks in advance if you can.