After Effects and Cineform at DVinfo.net

David Cherniack · November 29th, 2004, 03:38 PM

Hi David,

Just playing with FX1 footage in AE 6.5 and having difficulty setting up the composition so that it will export properly back to PPro. Also what should the interpretation be for the footage items in AE.

David

David Newman · November 29th, 2004, 04:53 PM

Unfortunalety AE doesn't support the Sony HDV pixel ratio of 1.33:1 (in fact most tools don't support this -- it even takes some work to make PPro 1.5 get the pixel aspect correct.) The work around is to use and interpret the footage as 1440x1080 (upper field field) spare pixel 1.0. And do the same for the composition. Now every pixel will be presented and rendered correctly for importing back into Premiere, however the 16:9 image will be shown as 4:3 while working in AE. An AE workaround to preview in 16:9 is to nest the active composite into a new composition with square pixels at 1920x1080, with the transform->scale set to 133% by 100%. Now you can use the second composition to correctly preview the first. Render out from the first to get pixel accurate rendering for importing back into Premiere Pro (use the Video For Window rendering mode and select the CineForm HD Codec V1.x.)

David Cherniack · November 29th, 2004, 07:12 PM

Thanks, David.

Alex Raskin · November 30th, 2004, 08:50 PM

...or simply have your footage transformed into 1920x1080 square pix in the first place.

Here's how (all-free solution, by the way):

1. Capture your video (live camera feed or from tape) via FX1's iLink (FireWire) into your PC using CapDVHS. CapDVHS is a free download, and it allows you to save either in Transport Stream m2t, or Program stream mpg. Choose Program Stream option. You will end up having your HDV footage as PS mpg files.

2. Import your mpg video into VDubMpegMod (that's VDub, modified for MPG work. Free download.) Choose HUFFYUV Compression (HUFFYUV is a lossless codec that allows you to save HDD space while preserving image quality. Free download.) Add Filter: Resize, 1920x1080, Bicubic, Interlaced. Save as AVI.

3. That's it! You got your 1920x1080 AVI that will work with both PremierePro and AfterEffects natively, and will display in correct ratio without interpreting. In PPro, set your project to 1920x1080. This is an actual workflow I use to online my edited HDV projects. (I actually edit offline - all the same as above, except my offline files are 720x405 HUFFYUV avi's. I then simply replace them with the full-res copies as above for final render, when edit is complete. This is the same workflow I use since JVC HD10 - with minor tweaks for FX1 now.)

Hope this helps.

David Newman · November 30th, 2004, 11:10 PM

Yes that will work, even when mixed with an Aspect HD workflow. The only downside is speed and the file size of HUFFYUV (which really forces your off-line workflow.)

Gabor Lacza · January 22nd, 2005, 02:31 PM

I edit my movie in premire pro with aspect hd.When all the editing is done how are you exporting this movie into after effects?
Do you export it as a movie with the cineform codec so you get 1 big file or is there any other way ?
And when you finish editing in after effects and want to bring back the file into premiere what format you use again ???
Any help is appreciated .
Gabor

David Newman · January 22nd, 2005, 07:20 PM

Premiere and After Effect have much better integration now, so you cut and paste better the two applications. You only need to move the sections that AE need to see. When done in AE export back out as CFHD (CineForm) via the Video for Window codec the comes with Aspect HD.

Gabor Lacza · January 23rd, 2005, 08:12 AM

Thanks David for your reply...but when I try to export from After Effetcs at Video for Window NO CFHD codec shows up in the option list.

David Newman · January 23rd, 2005, 11:11 AM

When you select "Video for Windows" and click on "Format Option" you should see "CineForm HD Codec V1.2" in the list. If you don't it wasn't installed for some reason. In that case go to "C:\Program Files\Common Files\CineForm" and right click on cfhd.inf and select install from the pop-up menu.

Gabor Lacza · January 23rd, 2005, 10:55 PM

Thanks David for your continous help but it is still not ok...I installed the cfhd file again but still it doesn`t show up as an option in After Effects for exporting.In Premiere Pro is not a problem.When I finished editing I choose export as movie the CFHD was right there and save it as an avi file...import it to Effects was not a problem for this avi file but when I done doing my things in Effects I cannot export it out with CFHD.I click export video for windows and asking for video settings.The only options I have is Cinepak,DV PAL, None,DV/DVCPRO NTSC , DVCPRO PAL,INtel Indeo Video 4.4.

Please any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Gabor

David Newman · January 23rd, 2005, 11:19 PM

just to confirm:

When you "Add to the Render Queue" then click on the preset next to "Output Module", probably defaults to "Lossless" (i.e. click on "Lossless".) The "Output Module Settings" window should allow you to select "Video for Windows" as the format then click on "Format Options". The popup should show a list like this
www.cineform.com/downloads/Codecs.png. I have added many other codecs over the years, but your list seems short. I need to confirm this is the panel you are looking at.

Gabor Lacza · January 24th, 2005, 11:02 PM

David,
thank you SO much...finally I checked this Render Queue and followed your instructions and CFHD was there ....This was not the panel I was looking at all !!
Once again thank you for your help
Regards
Gabor

Joel Corral · March 16th, 2005, 10:45 AM

Brent Marks,

i too experienced the same issues you do with the cineform plug. i tried to leave a ticket and they had no resolve for me. as it stands cineform and premiere pro 1.5.1 update are way below par and David is on theses boards trying to defend his product so a negative buzz does not float around. i am very displeased with cineform and displeased with ppro's solution but expect adobe to have a solid solution in prpo v2.0. as for now you should give EDIUS a try very good native HDV edit and capture.

my specs
p4 3.2 ghz
1 gig ram
700 gigs @ 8mb to 16mb buffers
ati 9600 256mb

joel

Thad Huston · March 16th, 2005, 02:23 PM

Joel Corral,

I am the CineForm support manager. I have checked our database today for your ticket.

There are no registered users named Joel Corral who have ever submitted trouble tickets. Furthermore there are no emails recieved by the support@cineform.com account any time in the last month with any kinds of identifiers that they might be you.

Do you have a ticket number you can refer me to? If so, please email the ticket reference to me at support@cineform.com and put it to my attention. I would like to get this resolved as I am clearly disturbed by the claims you've made above. You should definately not be having capture problems on a system with those specs unless the RAM speed is way under spec.

Thad H.
CineForm Support

Joel Corral · March 16th, 2005, 03:05 PM

sure do and i didn't use my real name,

Ticket Summary
Ticket #: 611-818134
Status: Resolved
Date Created: 3/13/2005 7:47 PM PDT
Date Updated: 3/15/2005 1:48 PM PDT

Ticket Description
Problem Type: Performance
OS: XP Professional
CPU: Intel Pentium 4
CPU Speed: > 3GHz
CPU Configuration: Single
Main Memory: Dual-Channel DDR SDRAM
Memory Amount: >=1024MB
Video Drive: Dedicated single video drive
System Usage: Dedicated Video Capture/Edit Workstation
Camera/Deck Model #: Sony HDR-FX1
Motherboard Manufacturer: gigabyte
Motherboard Model #: ???
Graphics Card Model #: Ati 9600pro
Product Name: Aspect HD
Version #: 3.0 DEmo
NLE Version: Premiere Pro 1.5
Serial Number: demo 3.0
Description of Problem: ok I will try to explain my problem as well as i can:

I am trying to import AVI that i DOWNCONVERTED to SD from my HDR-FX1 NOT USING THE CINEFORM CODEC. Rather using the premiere pro default DV (NTSC) codec.

But when i try to import those same avi files into after effects 6.5 pro in the "IMPORT FILE" window under Format: reads CineForm AVI. and apparently After effects does not recognize the file at all! Under the Import As: drop down menu there is nothing to choose!!! What have you DONE! i have evaluated 2.5 and now have 3.0 evaluation. And so far am very displeased. Is there a fix or a work around for this? is anyone else tried to import avi files downconerted to SD from the HDR-FX1? Is cineform even aware of this potential conflict?

Please HELP!!!

J

Precise Steps to Reproduce: ok I will try to explain my problem as well as i can:

I am trying to import AVI that i DOWNCONVERTED to SD from my HDR-FX1 NOT USING THE CINEFORM CODEC. Rather using the premiere pro default DV (NTSC) codec.

But when i try to import those same avi files into after effects 6.5 pro in the "IMPORT FILE" window under Format: reads CineForm AVI. and apparently After effects does not recognize the file at all! Under the Import As: drop down menu there is nothing to choose!!! What have you DONE! i have evaluated 2.5 and now have 3.0 evaluation. And so far am very displeased. Is there a fix or a work around for this? is anyone else tried to import avi files downconerted to SD from the HDR-FX1? Is cineform even aware of this potential conflict?

Please HELP!!!

J

Attachment: None

Solution
Solved:
(3/15/2005 1:48 PM PDT) Your downconverting workflow problem is outside the scope of CineForm's Support.

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History
Action Date Action CSR /Customer Comments
3/15/2005 1:48 PM PDT Solved Thad Huston (See solution)
3/15/2005 1:04 PM PDT Reopened ff ff my ticket was resolved but how do i read or where do i find the resolution for the problem?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is my ticket case, my problem was the issue of the Cineform Codec conflict in after effects. when i tried to import any .avi files after effects will not import any .avi files even .avi's that i captured with out the Cineform codec. the codec changes all avi's to cineform codec (at least after effects sees it that way) try it yourself and see. capture from the hdr-fx1 and downconvert on the fly. using the DV (NTSC) codec. then open after effects and create a new project and try to import the file you just captured. see for your self. i won't work i had to uninstall cineform for after effects to import avi's properly.

November 29th, 2004, 03:38 PM	#1
David Cherniack Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 186	After Effects and Cineform Hi David, Just playing with FX1 footage in AE 6.5 and having difficulty setting up the composition so that it will export properly back to PPro. Also what should the interpretation be for the footage items in AE. David

November 29th, 2004, 04:53 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Using Sony HDV footage in AE. Unfortunalety AE doesn't support the Sony HDV pixel ratio of 1.33:1 (in fact most tools don't support this -- it even takes some work to make PPro 1.5 get the pixel aspect correct.) The work around is to use and interpret the footage as 1440x1080 (upper field field) spare pixel 1.0. And do the same for the composition. Now every pixel will be presented and rendered correctly for importing back into Premiere, however the 16:9 image will be shown as 4:3 while working in AE. An AE workaround to preview in 16:9 is to nest the active composite into a new composition with square pixels at 1920x1080, with the transform->scale set to 133% by 100%. Now you can use the second composition to correctly preview the first. Render out from the first to get pixel accurate rendering for importing back into Premiere Pro (use the Video For Window rendering mode and select the CineForm HD Codec V1.x.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 30th, 2004, 11:10 PM	#5
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes that will work, even when mixed with an Aspect HD workflow. The only downside is speed and the file size of HUFFYUV (which really forces your off-line workflow.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 22nd, 2005, 02:31 PM	#6
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	Aspect Hd + After Effects I edit my movie in premire pro with aspect hd.When all the editing is done how are you exporting this movie into after effects? Do you export it as a movie with the cineform codec so you get 1 big file or is there any other way ? And when you finish editing in after effects and want to bring back the file into premiere what format you use again ??? Any help is appreciated . Gabor

January 22nd, 2005, 07:20 PM	#7
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Premiere and After Effect have much better integration now, so you cut and paste better the two applications. You only need to move the sections that AE need to see. When done in AE export back out as CFHD (CineForm) via the Video for Window codec the comes with Aspect HD. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 29th, 2004, 07:12 PM	#3
David Cherniack Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 186	Thanks, David.

November 30th, 2004, 08:50 PM	#4
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	...or simply have your footage transformed into 1920x1080 square pix in the first place. Here's how (all-free solution, by the way): 1. Capture your video (live camera feed or from tape) via FX1's iLink (FireWire) into your PC using CapDVHS. CapDVHS is a free download, and it allows you to save either in Transport Stream m2t, or Program stream mpg. Choose Program Stream option. You will end up having your HDV footage as PS mpg files. 2. Import your mpg video into VDubMpegMod (that's VDub, modified for MPG work. Free download.) Choose HUFFYUV Compression (HUFFYUV is a lossless codec that allows you to save HDD space while preserving image quality. Free download.) Add Filter: Resize, 1920x1080, Bicubic, Interlaced. Save as AVI. 3. That's it! You got your 1920x1080 AVI that will work with both PremierePro and AfterEffects natively, and will display in correct ratio without interpreting. In PPro, set your project to 1920x1080. This is an actual workflow I use to online my edited HDV projects. (I actually edit offline - all the same as above, except my offline files are 720x405 HUFFYUV avi's. I then simply replace them with the full-res copies as above for final render, when edit is complete. This is the same workflow I use since JVC HD10 - with minor tweaks for FX1 now.) Hope this helps.

January 23rd, 2005, 08:12 AM	#8
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	Thanks David for your reply...but when I try to export from After Effetcs at Video for Window NO CFHD codec shows up in the option list.

January 23rd, 2005, 11:11 AM	#9
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	When you select "Video for Windows" and click on "Format Option" you should see "CineForm HD Codec V1.2" in the list. If you don't it wasn't installed for some reason. In that case go to "C:\Program Files\Common Files\CineForm" and right click on cfhd.inf and select install from the pop-up menu. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 23rd, 2005, 10:55 PM	#10
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	Thanks David for your continous help but it is still not ok...I installed the cfhd file again but still it doesn`t show up as an option in After Effects for exporting.In Premiere Pro is not a problem.When I finished editing I choose export as movie the CFHD was right there and save it as an avi file...import it to Effects was not a problem for this avi file but when I done doing my things in Effects I cannot export it out with CFHD.I click export video for windows and asking for video settings.The only options I have is Cinepak,DV PAL, None,DV/DVCPRO NTSC , DVCPRO PAL,INtel Indeo Video 4.4. Please any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks Gabor

January 23rd, 2005, 11:19 PM	#11
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	just to confirm: When you "Add to the Render Queue" then click on the preset next to "Output Module", probably defaults to "Lossless" (i.e. click on "Lossless".) The "Output Module Settings" window should allow you to select "Video for Windows" as the format then click on "Format Options". The popup should show a list like this www.cineform.com/downloads/Codecs.png. I have added many other codecs over the years, but your list seems short. I need to confirm this is the panel you are looking at. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 24th, 2005, 11:02 PM	#12
Gabor Lacza Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Budapest , Hungary Posts: 194	David, thank you SO much...finally I checked this Render Queue and followed your instructions and CFHD was there ....This was not the panel I was looking at all !! Once again thank you for your help Regards Gabor

March 16th, 2005, 10:45 AM	#13
Joel Corral Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 356	Brent Marks, i too experienced the same issues you do with the cineform plug. i tried to leave a ticket and they had no resolve for me. as it stands cineform and premiere pro 1.5.1 update are way below par and David is on theses boards trying to defend his product so a negative buzz does not float around. i am very displeased with cineform and displeased with ppro's solution but expect adobe to have a solid solution in prpo v2.0. as for now you should give EDIUS a try very good native HDV edit and capture. my specs p4 3.2 ghz 1 gig ram 700 gigs @ 8mb to 16mb buffers ati 9600 256mb joel

March 16th, 2005, 02:23 PM	#14
Thad Huston AJA Video Systems Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 36	Joel Corral, I am the CineForm support manager. I have checked our database today for your ticket. There are no registered users named Joel Corral who have ever submitted trouble tickets. Furthermore there are no emails recieved by the support@cineform.com account any time in the last month with any kinds of identifiers that they might be you. Do you have a ticket number you can refer me to? If so, please email the ticket reference to me at support@cineform.com and put it to my attention. I would like to get this resolved as I am clearly disturbed by the claims you've made above. You should definately not be having capture problems on a system with those specs unless the RAM speed is way under spec. Thad H. CineForm Support __________________ TH www.aja.com

March 16th, 2005, 03:05 PM	#15
Joel Corral Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 356	sure do and i didn't use my real name, Ticket Summary Ticket #: 611-818134 Status: Resolved Date Created: 3/13/2005 7:47 PM PDT Date Updated: 3/15/2005 1:48 PM PDT Ticket Description Problem Type: Performance OS: XP Professional CPU: Intel Pentium 4 CPU Speed: > 3GHz CPU Configuration: Single Main Memory: Dual-Channel DDR SDRAM Memory Amount: >=1024MB Video Drive: Dedicated single video drive System Usage: Dedicated Video Capture/Edit Workstation Camera/Deck Model #: Sony HDR-FX1 Motherboard Manufacturer: gigabyte Motherboard Model #: ??? Graphics Card Model #: Ati 9600pro Product Name: Aspect HD Version #: 3.0 DEmo NLE Version: Premiere Pro 1.5 Serial Number: demo 3.0 Description of Problem: ok I will try to explain my problem as well as i can: I am trying to import AVI that i DOWNCONVERTED to SD from my HDR-FX1 NOT USING THE CINEFORM CODEC. Rather using the premiere pro default DV (NTSC) codec. But when i try to import those same avi files into after effects 6.5 pro in the "IMPORT FILE" window under Format: reads CineForm AVI. and apparently After effects does not recognize the file at all! Under the Import As: drop down menu there is nothing to choose!!! What have you DONE! i have evaluated 2.5 and now have 3.0 evaluation. And so far am very displeased. Is there a fix or a work around for this? is anyone else tried to import avi files downconerted to SD from the HDR-FX1? Is cineform even aware of this potential conflict? Please HELP!!! J Precise Steps to Reproduce: ok I will try to explain my problem as well as i can: I am trying to import AVI that i DOWNCONVERTED to SD from my HDR-FX1 NOT USING THE CINEFORM CODEC. Rather using the premiere pro default DV (NTSC) codec. But when i try to import those same avi files into after effects 6.5 pro in the "IMPORT FILE" window under Format: reads CineForm AVI. and apparently After effects does not recognize the file at all! Under the Import As: drop down menu there is nothing to choose!!! What have you DONE! i have evaluated 2.5 and now have 3.0 evaluation. And so far am very displeased. Is there a fix or a work around for this? is anyone else tried to import avi files downconerted to SD from the HDR-FX1? Is cineform even aware of this potential conflict? Please HELP!!! J Attachment: None Solution Solved: (3/15/2005 1:48 PM PDT) Your downconverting workflow problem is outside the scope of CineForm's Support. Actions Comment: The above text contains HTML formatting Options Customer CC Emails: Attachment: Attach a File (max 1 file of 6 MB) ( Remove ) History Action Date Action CSR /Customer Comments 3/15/2005 1:48 PM PDT Solved Thad Huston (See solution) 3/15/2005 1:04 PM PDT Reopened ff ff my ticket was resolved but how do i read or where do i find the resolution for the problem? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- this is my ticket case, my problem was the issue of the Cineform Codec conflict in after effects. when i tried to import any .avi files after effects will not import any .avi files even .avi's that i captured with out the Cineform codec. the codec changes all avi's to cineform codec (at least after effects sees it that way) try it yourself and see. capture from the hdr-fx1 and downconvert on the fly. using the DV (NTSC) codec. then open after effects and create a new project and try to import the file you just captured. see for your self. i won't work i had to uninstall cineform for after effects to import avi's properly.